Mcps-prs Alliance Pro Dub License.

[Gary 0]

Good news !

 

 

 

I've just been in contact with the MCPS/PRS Alliance and have the latest details.

 

 

 

The launch is set to be a week tomorrow - July 1st. - less than 8 days, and countin'

 

 

 

Prices...(here were go).

 

 

 

There are prices for those DJs wishing to dub/copy plain AUDIO tracks and then a Top-Up/Bolt-on costing for those DJs who have Karaoke tracks within their collection.

 

 

 

1 to 5000 tracks = £250 (audio only) or £300 (any mixture of audio and karaoke)

 

 

 

5001 to 10000 tracks = £300 (audio only) or £360 (any mixture of audio and karaoke)

 

 

 

10001 to 15000 tracks = £350 (audio only) or £420 (any mixture of audio and karaoke)

 

 

 

15001 to 20000 tracks = £400 (audio only) or £450 (any mixture of audio and karaoke)

 

 

 

Over 20001 tracks - you'll need to call them for a pro-rata rate.

 

 

 

 

 

I've got more information promised to be on its way to me shortly. I have asked if the "Karaoke" options above include pop music videos, or just "karaoke" as I know that a few members on here are into pop music video playback - I have also asked some other questions, which they are coming back to me on, the DJ related ones I will of course post up here as I get the additional info.

 

 

 

I've also asked about over/under dubbing - eg: What if I buy a 5000 license and by the end of the year have actually dubbed 6000 tracks (The SG6 license handled this quite well, using 3 monthly/quarterly returns sheets, which helped both the licensee and licenser(?) keep track and any balance was offset to the next years, or paid pro-rata. - maybe this will be the same?)

 

 

 

Also asked was do the existing PRS inspectors work mearly 9 til 5 Mon-thru-Fri? Answer, no they don't.

 

.

 

 

 

 

Edited June 23, 2008 by Gary

[TonyB 0]

Did you ask if this is this an annual fee or one of?

 

E.g. if I pay for 10,000 tracks this year but don't dub anymore, will I have to pay a renewal fee next year?

[Dukesy 0]

Gary

 

Thank you for bringing a little more clarity to the forum, although a little more would be helpful. If you could forward a copy of the original email from the MCPS so that I can brief my members - please send to

chairman@djassociates.org

 

Have any of the LWP received same info?

 

Please could you confirm if DJs who provide a non-profit / free service require the licence, indicating if DJs who provide private functions require the licence and if DJs who provide public and corporate entertainment require the licence?

 

Or, put another way, which type of DJ services require the licence and which don't, and which other services require the licence and which don't, for clarity purposes?

 

Also, the question regarding the advertising of the licence has been asked by various members - are the MCPS advertising and if so, where - please can you indicate examples?

 

Regarding registration - will DJs who do not need the licence need to register with the MCPS?

 

Is there introductory discounts on the standard licence price?

 

Is the licence only obtainable via the internet from the MCPS website?

 

Although it might be a single rights licence, is the PPL Digital DJ Licence still required - has it been withdrawn from sale or not? Do you have a statement from the PPL about this?

 

Lastly, is the MCPS going to publish on their website a list of individuals who are currently licensed to enforce the licence?

 

Cheers

Edited June 23, 2008 by Dukesy

[andyw 0]

thanks gary,i assume the launch will be july 1st ,can you find out how long before they start enforcing it.

and also clarify if we buy the license this year to convert our cd's to mp3 then if we only buy legal downloads,we won't have to pay other years.

[Reverandfunk 0]

Just had a look on their web MCPS/PRS Alliance site and couldnt find anything, does anyone have a link?

[Gary 0]

Did you ask if this is this an annual fee or one of?

 

E.g. if I pay for 10,000 tracks this year but don't dub anymore, will I have to pay a renewal fee next year?

 

 

 

In simple terms, it's a ONE OFF - as the license is to cover you for the physical ACT of the moving/copying/ripping of the tracks from their original medium to your newly chosen medium - the actual dubbing process. Buying the license to cover you for this act is the difference between dubbing and piracy (of that act/task)

 

 

 

How many years after that dubbing process you actually use those dubbed tracks for does not matter - as the illegal task which you needed to be covered for was done in year 1 - eg: The moving/dubbing.

 

 

 

This is a very good question, and the answer is absolutely superb...knocking a massive amount of concerns away in a single swipe... to a-liken the Pro dub license to mobile phone tariffs for a moment - The Pro Dub License comes with ROLLOVER (my words, not theirs, but they agreed to the analogy).

 

 

 

Looking at the banding above...

 

 

 

Say a DJ has 12000 tracks to move onto a hard drive - he (or she) would need to buy the 10001 to 15000 tracks license. He/she would then dub his/her 12000 tracks and could play those gig after gig after gig...Now what of those remaining 3000 "unused dubs" from the 15000 license - after all, our example DJ has only used 12000 dubs of off the license...???

 

 

 

Here's the exciting, and in my view VERY fair piece of symbiosys (even if I cant spell it). The remaining 3000 dubs (in the example above, as I understand it/MCPS/PRS) would be available to our example DJ indefinately... so, if the example DJ buys another 1000 tracks in the following year, and another 1000 tracks the year after, and another 1000 tracks the year after that... they wont have to buy another Pro-Dub License for 3 or 4 years.

 

 

 

Alot of people on this forum and others have done a bit of forward thinking, and of course a few discenting voices have hinted at massive price rises for the license for Year 2, year 3, blah blah blah.

 

 

 

So...lets look at that banding again - for our example DJ, with a bit of forward thinking about the future - the 15001 to 20000 tracks Pro dub license costs £400 - that means that permission to dub tracks is costing just a measely 2pence per track. At £400 for the license, our example DJ with 12000 tracks NOW and buying/receiving/gaining approx 1000 new tracks per year, every year... will be covered for NOW (12000 tracks dubbed, 8000 tracks balance), dubbing of next years (2009s) music purchases (13000 dubs used, 7000 dubs balance), dubbing of 2010's music purchases (14000 dubs used, 6000 dubs balance...) and so on....

 

 

 

That's what £400 dubbing license covering our example DJ for NOW (this year) and 8 additional years approximately - that works out at £44.44 per annum (That's about 4 CDs), or to put it another way...buy a £400 / 20000 track license next week, and he/she not needing to buy the next licence until 2015.

 

 

 

The £400 / 20000 tracks Pro-dub license makes great sense, if you're planning on dubbing new tracks on an on-going basis, which is I believe the category that many of us fit into.

 

 

 

More news as it's confirmed.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Dream Catchers 0]

Do we have to register to be exempt though?

 

Jim

[Robster 0]

£450 for tracks i paid for and own already... nice

well i will pay it if they enforce it , i don't want to be the only one forking out £450 when johnny pirate isn't otherwise it will be another reason why legit guys are being screwed over

 

how are they going to check where the files came from? mine are from my discs but if someone downloaded massive collections from dodgy sites but then paid the licence that's a serious saving against what i have paid over the years

Edited June 23, 2008 by enquirer

[spinner 0]

Did you ask if this is this an annual fee or one of?

 

E.g. if I pay for 10,000 tracks this year but don't dub anymore, will I have to pay a renewal fee next year?

 

 

The presenter at the NADJ AGM said not.

[vokf 0]

Thanks for the post Gary - I also was going to ask if its an annual fee, so you've cleared that one up :-)

 

The policing is of interest, otherwise it could be see as a tax on otherwise legitimate DJ's.

I realise the current situation is that we should not dub from CD to MP3, but owning the original vs a BitTorrent is the better of the two - but I guess you won't need a Dub licence for an illegal download (no change of format!)

 

It is also interesting how things will progress in time. I currently have just over 7000 tracks, mainly CD rips with about 300 legal MP3 downloads. (so ~6700 rips)

 

I should be able to add a further 3300 rips at any time as I would have purchased the 5000-10000 band licence.

 

Gary: Any information on Backups? My 7000 tracks are currently on my embedded PC's HDD, and 2 removable HDD's for Backup. Will these be seen are 21,000 tracks? Obviously, I will only be playing 1 set at a time, and will not be loaning the other out.

As we don't have a "Fair Use" policy in the UK, even backing up CD's is not legal at the moment (although a blind eye is turned for private use)

 

 

For something that is being released (and effective) from 8 days, I find it amazing there is so little information.

 

Surely there should be a decent PDF out *months* ago, detailing the bands and various scenarios - not for discussion, but for DJ's to plan and ensure they are aware of the situation.

This should have been passed to DJ stores, specialist record stores, venue managers and so on.

 

The Rev's comments about DJ's that don't belong to the Online community, is interesting and valid.

Ignorance is no excuse for the Law, but for many they will they are doing nothing wrong in their mind.

 

 

For this to work for "us" (ie non-cowboys!) Venues really need to get behind it.

The PRS etc won't have the manpower to police it pro-actively.

It will be very similar to driving without TAX 20 years ago; unless you where seen and stopped by a police car, you could get away with it.

 

I would expect council run venues to start requesting this in advance, possibly a 3-way "Pat, PLI and PDL" pack from the DJ/Performer (this also applies to dance instructors, or anyone who dubs from CD to MP3)

 

 

Personally, I'll be sitting on the fence until more official information is provided.

 

Jason

[Gary 0]

£450 for tracks i paid for and own already...

 

 

 

That's the main hurdle in some peoples perceptions. The purchaser of any CD has only bought the CD and its contents in that format, not any actual rights or copyrights of the tracks on that CD, as per the smallprint on the inlay cover(s) of the CD. (Unless of course, the CD in question is "The Greatest Hits of The Police" and it's Sting who bought the CD from Woolies.

 

 

 

See more or less every other thread about the old Digital DJ license, or this Pro-Dub Licence.

 

 

 

With regard to "what of DJs (or any other pro dubbers - this ISNT a DJ license)? who are E-deaf, E-dumb, and E-blind"? those percentage of pro dubbers who may claim not to know nuffin about the new Pro Dub licence" I suspect that MCPS-PRS/PPL current license policing will previal - read on.

 

 

 

Currently, and historically for that matter - the above orgs have simply had a 100% surcharge for retrospective licensing. EG:

 

 

 

"Hello sir, where's your £250 license?"

 

 

 

"Oh, I didna know I needed one?"

 

 

 

"OK, thats £500 please"

 

 

 

This is how those orgs have worked with their many and various other licenses in the past to my knowledge, and theres been nothing yet to suggest that this license is going to be any different.

 

 

 

No-one reading this thread will need worry about that though as you're now aware of the license and therefore know about it beforehand. I've got a couple of non-internet enabled / non-forum/associate colleagues/pro dubbers/friends, who I will be telling verbally of these developments. I know of no reason why other members with similarly non-E-enabled colleagues, couldn't bestow the same level of friendship to their colleagues in turn as a courtesy.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited June 23, 2008 by Gary

[Reverandfunk 0]

This was all I could find on the website:

 

http://www.mcps-prs-alliance.co.uk/musicfo...DubLicence.aspx

 

What sort of organisation are they?

 

Bringing in a license that isn't publisized - not even on their own website

 

And its coming in in a weeks time?

 

Cowboys

[Robster 0]

my concern is that this licence could make some ones illegal torrent download collection legal as they will only be bothered that you have a licence not where the tracks came from

[Paul Smith 0]

For something that is being released (and effective) from 8 days, I find it amazing there is so little information.

 

Surely there should be a decent PDF out *months* ago, detailing the bands and various scenarios - not for discussion, but for DJ's to plan and ensure they are aware of the situation.

This should have been passed to DJ stores, specialist record stores, venue managers and so on.

 

 

 

So am I - if they are launching this in 8 days then they must have all the details finalised yet we are only getting info in dribs and drabs from individuals who have contacted the MCPS.

 

 

 

No official press release, no advance publicity, no web site, no LWP announcements ... now I know how a mushroon feels - kept in the dark & fed on :cense: :cow:

 

 

[Reverandfunk 0]

Enquirer - You have highlighted my main concern which no-one can answer.

 

I pay xxx amount for my 5000 tracks and get my license

 

Mr Inspector comes round *coughs* (Bit like Father Christmas and the Tooth Fairy)

 

Can anyone tell me how he is going to verify the source of my 5000 tracks?

 

Is he going to stop the party in full swing to check them?

 

Alternatively:

 

I opt out of the license and say all my tracks are legal downloads.

 

Is he going to stop the party in full swing to check them?

 

 

This a a BASIC fundamental that no-one has answered

 

I am not anti license but I am strongly anti something is ill conceived and ill publised as this which I only see as a short term money maker for 6 months then it will disappear into obscurity like the previous digital license was

 

 

 

[Danno13 0]

Gary.. thanks for the update on the rollover option.. thats a fantastic idea! I was a bit worried that a lower band hadn't been created, as I'm unlikely to copy over 1,000-2,000 tracks each year.. but it seems it doesn't matter since I can just pay the £400 to start off with and be covered for a good few years!

[Dukesy 0]

As this subject is likely to get a bit heated, whilst Gary has kindly volunteered the information on behalf of the MCPS (could be a nice little earner there for him! - pun! smile icon ) and is slowly getting around to answering everyone's questions, please, please, please, regardless of personal views towards the license - whether largely against or even for it, please can we keep the comments civil. I'm sure Gary will do his best to answer all questions!

 

To answer a PM, DJ Associates already has the services of a specialist media lawyer who has access to the threads - and I've already told him that DJs on the community forums ARE professional, regardless of the forum they choose to post on!

 

So in the Hill Street Blues roll call fashion (mindful of the rules)….."Hey! Let's be careful out there!"

 

Further announcements in due course.

[Robster 0]

I sincerely apologise if anyone feels i have not been civil. I am thankful Gary has taken his time and effort in revealing this important information.

As this is important information for all KJ's /dj'si have posted the details of this on a karaoke only forum to see what others think but i don't feel i said anything derogatory about the licence just concerns about how this is going to be policed.

when you buy a TV licence they are not bothered if the telly is stolen or not as long as you have the licence. That's for another authority to look into , i am hoping this is not going to be the case with this new dub licence.

 

i wait eagerly for further information but as the 1st is swiftly approaching i hope not too long.

thanks once again Gary for the valuable information

Edited June 23, 2008 by enquirer

[Dream Catchers 0]

As with anything that generates income, I expect that the powers that be will be better off targeting the groups that will not get the license, lets face it what are the chances of Linda Legs Dance Studio or Paula Pelvis Aerobics knowing about the license or getting one?

A quick look through the local paper to find dance and aerobic classes will give the "enforcer" many people to pounce on that won't have the license so he is ensured his bonus just like the traffic wardens (or local authority parking enforcers).

It will also be easier for him to verify the source of their 50 tracks compared to our 000's.

 

Jim

[Gary 0]

Just a quick caveat here. I hope that Dan/Dukesy won't mind me just clarifying a turn-of-phrase used by him earlier; I'm not posting "on behalf" of any of the organisations related to the provision of the license. It's just me passing on information which I feel sure other DJU forum members will find of practical use.

 

I spoke with two MCPS/PRS staff members this morning, albeit not via a totally public route, and obtained the price/dubbing quantity bands, and related info here.

 

Some DJU members, with oooold DJU member accounts and/or good memories, will remember that before this Pro Dub License, a couple of years ago there was the so-called "Digital DJ License", before that (and still available) was the SG-6 license.

 

Fewer members, perhaps, will remember that with those licenses, as soon as they were rumoured of, hinted at, semi-divulged, or mentioned in a whispered tone over a flaming sambuka by a foreign agent in a sleazy Istanbul hotel (sorry, give me two minutes, the tablets haven't kicked in yet..), I did my best to bring those licenses to the attention of the DJU membership, even compiled questions from DJU members, and got into a fairly hectic e-triangle between members and whichever organisation it was.

 

Perhaps this historic (gaw, that makes me sound old) dedication to information sharing on licenses to make our lives easier, although not necessarily as cheap/free, is what gives me cause for concern when the Laurel & Hardy types simply re-state their same false objections, blinkering themselves from new information and answers in an increasingly deliberate bout of feigned ignorance. For some of us, the realism of "We loved it when it was free to rip, but dar be a license coming from dem dare hills" has been hovering around for 3 to 4 years (sometimes it feels even longer).

 

I'm adamant (no, that doesn't mean I've got a white strip across my nose) for members to know as much as possible about the new Pro-dub license, enabling each and every member to make up their own mind about their choice of what medium to play music from, whether to "convert for convenience", or the cheaper option of using the music from only its original (no Pro Dub license required) format. Ripping is convenience, just like a microwavable ready meal, versus buying all the cheaper raw ingredients and preparing and cooking it all yourself.

 

As almost all members on here (I suspect) I am a mobile DJ. I'd rather carry my entire music collection into a venue on 3 hard drives, rather than 12 LP cases of vinyl, 3 cases of 200 x CDs in Jewel cases and a Slappa or two. And of course, I'd like to tell the bloke breathing Whisky (with a twist) into my eyes from 4 centimetres away, that "Yes, I've got your track in my collection", in just 5 seconds, rather than a dozen desperate hurried digs through boxes and boxes of album cover sleeves. Again, Essential? No, (but ask me again when my eyes are being marinated in passive Whisky.)

 

We pay for convenience in other elements of our lives – although perhaps the legally-grey clouds around music copying since the invention of the domestic cassette deck, has been one of those "free holiday" situations which is harder for some to let go of next week, much in the same way as we feel when "Happy Hour" ends (and I'm not talking about the run-out groove at the end of a record by The Housemartins.).

 

Ripping music for free? Getting way with it? Good while it lasted. - Like it or not – could perhaps be the T-shirt slogan of the moment – the "Frankie Says" or "Choose Life" slogan of it's time.

 

Until, and even beyond, MCPS/PRS alliance get the details and their FAQs up on their website (hopefully their site will be updated in the next few days), I'll continue to pass questions and post answers. I'd like to add that I'm not essentially "having a go" at anyone - the whole copyright and those "© 2001" type messages on the backs of album/CD covers have been something which for so many of us, for so so long now, have been something which we've never before had to involve ourselves with - much in the same way as someone telling you "Don't look down" when you're dangling off a ledge - their advice doesn't make you any safer, its just sometimes nicer to look the other way. With the Pro Dub license, things are, in terms of clarity finally starting to Look up!

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited June 23, 2008 by Gary

[Dukesy 0]

Gary, I don't mind at all! Sincerely, I'm not knocking your good will and it is of course appreciated what information is presented. I have gone some way to be light hearted and in reminding members - don't shoot the messenger, either here or in related thread!

Let's be fair here. Effectively relaying info from MCPS to DJU would ideally be from an impartial intermediary or direct from the MCPS rep themselves, as there are still many questions unanswered and might be better addressed from those who are issuing the licence, who obviously have the scope to answer.

We are a friendly bunch! smile icon

[spinner 0]

 

 

No official press release, no advance publicity, no web site, no LWP announcements ... now I know how a mushroon feels - kept in the dark & fed on :cense: :cow:

 

 

Actually, there is a dedicated website for this.

 

Unfortunately there was nothing on it when I looked last week.

[robbiedj 0]

OK folks

 

The LWP have received a copy of a preliminary press release which will be announced nationally shortly.

 

I am sorry we have not posted as yet, but it only came to us on Friday and we are not allowed to publish it until given the OK. We responded on Friday and are waiting to receive confirmation even now.

 

Just to put things straight it is a joint license from PPL & MCPS/PRS. It should come into play from 1st July, with a discount for those who purchase before November.

 

Some negotiations are still on-going concerning various aspects not yet agreed. Even we have not had the final details, as yet.

 

As for video, that has still to be clarified as it is not in their province although we have tried to get it included on numerous occasions.

 

Robbie

[Dukesy 0]

No-one reading this thread will need worry about that though as you're now aware of the license and therefore know about it beforehand. I've got a couple of non-internet enabled / non-forum/associate colleagues/pro dubbers/friends, who I will be telling verbally of these developments. I know of no reason why other members with similarly non-E-enabled colleagues, couldn't bestow the same level of friendship to their colleagues in turn as a courtesy.

 

Great!, where can I sign up for the MCPS-PRS 'Refer a friend' scheme?

And what incentive is offered?. I can get £50 for referring a friend to HSBC, or a few £15 M&S vouchers for referring friends to various other commercial interests, even the MU used to offer £5 discounts for referrals

 

What is the going rate for employment of PR / marketing executives these days?

£30k OTE to begin?

 

Seems like we would be saving them a huge wages bill in return for all of this goodwill and for doing their job for them, and, as we all know, Goodwill works both ways, especially when you are actively promoting something which is not exactly sitting well with quite a fair proportion of 'our sector', never mind the rest of the entertainment world!

In hindsight, maybe it should be rephrased to the 'lose a friend scheme'!

 

[KrazyKaz 0]

There are people out there in the big wide world (I'm sure there must be) that have downloaded mp3's from "illegal" download sites!

 

So, if you don't need a licence if you don't change the format, then basically, they get away with it. Which is rather unfair don't you think?