Produb Licence

[fozziesdisco 0]

Hi Everyone

 

I have mentioned this on my earlier introduction thread, but after talking into the small hours this morning

with some fellow dj's both mobile & club, we are currently at stalemate as to who this licence applies to,

and who actually does not need it.

i give you some scenarios from our converstaion;

 

DJ A ; Mobile D.J, does mainly family parties (kiddies birthdays,18ths,21st,weddings etc), working in

various village halls, hotels, function rooms suites etc. No residency. Uses cd's & cd-r (music for cd-r, downloaded from £10 a month Napster).

 

 

D.J B ; As above, but with one night a week residency. Uses mainly laptop, with cd-r as back up.

Bulk of library is ripped from existing cd collection, apart from last 6 months new releases, amounting to

approx 500 tracks which have been downloaded from various sites, napster,tesco & even limewire.

 

 

D.J C : Ocasional mobile D.J, but mainly club/ bar D.J. Uses mainly vinyl, cd's & cd-r. When working nightclubs, prepares part of set at home and loads prepared "mix" to either laptop or cd-r.

Also uses laptop for Karoake shows once a week residency.

 

So i ask, which if not all three of the above D.J's require the produb licence?

any advice would really be appreciated, as all three of us are confused by the licence.

many thanks also for providing a helpful forum site even for an "old timer" like myself.

 

fozzie

[Dukesy 0]

Appreciate your concerns.

If you can not find the answers you are looking for directly from the Pro Dub web site, they have invited enquiries via telephone.

 

[fozziesdisco 0]

Appreciate your concerns.

If you can not find the answers you are looking for directly from the Pro Dub web site, they have invited enquiries via telephone.

 

Hi Dukesy

Thanks for the reply, I will be in contact with Pro dub etc, when they re open on tuesday.

Having read some of the other threads on this subject, it would appear a very contensious

issue, espcially as some "D.J's" appear to be acitvely "shopping" fellow D.J's to line their own pockets,

with their "mailshots" to venues regarding D.J's use of laptops etc.

 

 

[spinner 0]

The pro-dub licence covers anyone making copies of original material from one format to another for use in a paid situation.

 

That could be DJs, could be aerobics instructors, dance teachers etc. etc.

 

One example of copying is ripping original CDs to a hard drive for use with a mass storage player or to a laptop.

 

The same applies for copying vinyl to CD-R.

 

Legal downloads burned to CD-R are a direct alternative to a shop bought CD and do not need the licence but it's always a good idea to check the issuer's terms and conditions.

 

Legal downloads direct to a hard drive or laptop do not require the licence because no copying has taken place. That's fine if they can be played in their original state with no modifications.

 

However not all legal downloads can be played on either mass storage players or laptops because of either a) format or b)DRM.

 

In this case it is often necessary to burn to CD-R then rip to hard drive or laptop, in which case the licence is needed for the ripping.

 

Whether or not a performance is public or private is not the point.

 

The licence requirement is for copying.

Edited August 24, 2008 by spinner

[fozziesdisco 0]

The pro-dub licence covers anyone making copies of original material from one format to another for use in a paid situation.

 

That could be DJs, could be aerobics instructors, dance teachers etc. etc.

 

One example of copying is ripping original CDs to a hard drive for use with a mass storage player or to a laptop.

 

The same applies for copying vinyl to CD-R.

 

Legal downloads burned to CD-R are a direct alternative to a shop bought CD and do not need the licence but it's always a good idea to check the issuer's terms and conditions.

 

Legal downloads direct to a hard drive or laptop do not require the licence because no copying has taken place. That's fine if they can be played in their original state with no modifications.

 

However not all legal downloads can be played on either mass storage players or laptops because of either a) format or b)DRM.

 

In this case it is often necessary to burn to CD-R then rip to hard drive or laptop, in which case the licence is needed for the ripping.

 

Whether or not a performance is public or private is not the point.

 

The licence requirement is for copying.

 

 

Hi Spinner

Thank you very much for the responce, you have explained the situation more clearly.

I converted/ripped all my cd collection to an external harddrive, and now "top up" my library to keep

up to date with charts/requests etc by downloading the required tracks from various sources.

So i assume from the criteria i have read on threads on this subject including your reply, i would need a

pro dub licence for my original library (the original ripped cd collection), but not for any subsequent

downloads via internet sites.

Your or anybody else's vice would be really appreciated.

many thanks

fozzie

 

[andyw 0]

 

 

Legal downloads burned to CD-R are a direct alternative to a shop bought CD and do not need the licence but it's always a good idea to check the issuer's terms and conditions.

 

 

The licence requirement is for copying.

 

please please please don't shoot the messenger here but

on another forum i visit someone put that scenario directly to produb,and the reply was that burning to cd r was for personal use only and anyone doing this in a professional capacity needed a license

so according to produb you will need a license to burn legal mp3's to cd r's

 

[spinner 0]

please please please don't shoot the messenger here but

on another forum i visit someone put that scenario directly to produb,and the reply was that burning to cd r was for personal use only and anyone doing this in a professional capacity needed a license

so according to produb you will need a license to burn legal mp3's to cd r's

 

Utter nonsense and totally illogical.

 

Not everyone at Pro-Dub is reliably informed and I would suggest that whoever gave out that information is one of those who isn't.

 

A digital download has the same status ( but always check terms and conditions on all pre-recorded CDs and legal download sites for any variations ) as a pre-recorded CD. And burning to CD-R is allowed as part of the purchase process.

That's the whole point of them for goodness' sake!

 

 

[mikeee 0]

Steve, you may have been mis-informed. If you download direct to your play out machine you do not need the licence, but if you copy to another machine or CD-R you do need the licence. The licence terms for the download (ie you can make a copy to an ipod or CD) is for personal use only and not for business use.

[andyw 0]

Utter nonsense and totally illogical.

 

Not everyone at Pro-Dub is reliably informed and I would suggest that whoever gave out that information is one of those who isn't.

 

A digital download has the same status ( but always check terms and conditions on all pre-recorded CDs and legal download sites for any variations ) as a pre-recorded CD. And burning to CD-R is allowed as part of the purchase process.

That's the whole point of them for goodness' sake!

 

sorry steve , i did say don't shoot the messenger, it came from clare at the produb office. as you say she might be misinformed i don't know and i won't put any money on it either way.

[spinner 0]

sorry steve , i did say don't shoot the messenger, it came from clare at the produb office. as you say she might be misinformed i don't know and i won't put any money on it either way.

 

 

My comments were not about the messenger - only the message!

 

I'm not totally surpised at this because I've had some really weird and wonderful ( and wrong ) answers from people at MCPS, PPL and PRS who are not fully appraised of the situation.

 

Legal downloads include a licence to burn to CD-R - a necessary format change if you like but not a copy in the same way that ripping a CD would be.

 

If the burned CD-R is ripped to a hard drive then that's when a pro-dub licence is required. If the CD is simply played as it is then there are no licencing issues other than those required by a venue for performance, a totally different subject.

 

[andyw 0]

My comments were not about the messenger - only the message!

 

 

 

i know you were n't having a dig at me steve. there still seems tobe a lot of confusion over the license and some(if not most of it )seems tobe people getting different answers to the same question from the people at produb. so i sent an email this morning asking the question hopefully they will reply tomorrow and i will post it up here.

[spinner 0]

i know you were n't having a dig at me steve. there still seems tobe a lot of confusion over the license and some(if not most of it )seems tobe people getting different answers to the same question from the people at produb. so i sent an email this morning asking the question hopefully they will reply tomorrow and i will post it up here.

 

From the Pro-Dub site FAQ section

 

"When you purchase recordings, for example CDs from a record store or downloads from a legitimate online music service, you are only buying the right to listen to these recordings for private and domestic uses. This is why these recordings normally state that any unauthorised copying, hiring, broadcasting, etc of them is not permitted. If you therefore wish to make copies of these recordings for the purpose of carrying out performances such as DJing or conducting fitness classes or any other public performance, then you need to obtain a licence, which in these circumstances is the ProDub Licence."

 

"if you make copies" - burning a legal CD is not making a copy since that's part of what the buyer is allowed to do in the original purchase. If that Burned CD was then ripped elsewhere, or the original download was copied so that there were 2 digital files, that would be a copy, requiring the licence.

 

 

Just to add to the confusion, you will notice the mention of public performance, which requires venues to hold a public performance licence. You will be aware that domestic/family functions ( eg weddings, birthdays ) are classed as private and don't require a performance licence but they still require the pro-dub licence if copied material is used.

Edited August 25, 2008 by spinner

[Dukesy 0]

 

From the Pro-Dub site FAQ section

 

"When you purchase recordings, for example CDs from a record store or downloads from a legitimate online music service, you are only buying the right to listen to these recordings for private and domestic uses. This is why these recordings normally state that any unauthorised copying, hiring, broadcasting, etc of them is not permitted. If you therefore wish to make copies of these recordings for the purpose of carrying out performances such as DJing or conducting fitness classes or any other public performance, then you need to obtain a licence, which in these circumstances is the ProDub Licence."

 

 

 

"if you make copies" - burning a legal CD is not making a copy since that's part of what the buyer is allowed to do in the original purchase. If that Burned CD was then ripped elsewhere, or the original download was copied so that there were 2 digital files, that would be a copy, requiring the licence.

 

Just to add to the confusion, you will notice the mention of public performance, which requires venues to hold a public performance licence. You will be aware that domestic/family functions ( eg weddings, birthdays ) are classed as private and don't require a performance licence but they still require the pro-dub licence if copied material is used.

 

As pointed out previously, the PPL site indicates that non-domestic settings require a licence but a private wedding party 'may' not.

 

Taking a Pub for example, a publican has Private Property rights. From history, the ‘pub’ is not a public place and not publicly owned. They are private premises BUT may be subject to ‘workplace’ rules under law. The amendments to the licensing Act 2003 may well have considered the ‘local pub’ and such establishments in its objectives, with being a workplace too. Further example – the smoking ban!

 

So the argument that a performer who format shifts their personal music and then plays the format shifted music in such a venue may well require the licence.

 

However, in the domestic, private hire setting such as a Wedding, which is usually an invitation type of private gathering, the function is not considered 'public'. A Wedding Reception is not advertised as a public function and this is the accepted norm for such domestic type of private functions.

 

When a ‘pub’ or other licensed venue is hired for a domestic function such as a Wedding then public entertainment may indeed not be applicable!!!

 

The DJ@s Solicitor said that there are several areas of interest and he was very intrigued!

[spinner 0]

As pointed out previously, the PPL site indicates that non-domestic settings require a licence but a private wedding party 'may' not.

 

Taking a Pub for example, a publican has Private Property rights. From history, the ‘pub’ is not a public place and not publicly owned. They are private premises BUT may be subject to ‘workplace’ rules under law. The amendments to the licensing Act 2003 may well have considered the ‘local pub’ and such establishments in its objectives, with being a workplace too. Further example – the smoking ban!

 

So the argument that a performer who format shifts their personal music and then plays the format shifted music in such a venue may well require the licence.

 

However, in the domestic, private hire setting such as a Wedding, which is usually an invitation type of private gathering, the function is not considered 'public'. A Wedding Reception is not advertised as a public function and this is the accepted norm for such domestic type of private functions.

 

When a ‘pub’ or other licensed venue is hired for a domestic function such as a Wedding then public entertainment may indeed not be applicable!!!

 

The DJ@s Solicitor said that there are several areas of interest and he was very intrigued!

 

 

Whilst it's encouraging to hear of the solicitor's reaction, whether or not a function is private is irrelevant if the DJ using copied music is being paid. which is the salient point according to the licence conditions.

 

A possible exception at a private function might be if a friend or family member ( not a DJ ) played his/her ripped music for free since, currently, a blind eye is turned towards the general public ripping their own CDs.

 

 

 

 

Edited August 25, 2008 by spinner

[DJ Marky Marc 0]

A digital download has the same status ( but always check terms and conditions on all pre-recorded CDs and legal download sites for any variations ) as a pre-recorded CD. And burning to CD-R is allowed as part of the purchase process.

 

That's the whole point of them for goodness' sake!

 

Might be off topic a little bit but I have been told but a trusted friend to re read the licence agreement for the ITUNES downloads I make..

 

I use itunes to get special requests etc before a gig... however it turns out that the small print in the licence forbids any sort of performace use with these files.. and infact all music from ITunes is illigal to use for DJing...

 

ho hum.... :hurt:

[spinner 0]

Might be off topic a little bit but I have been told but a trusted friend to re read the licence agreement for the ITUNES downloads I make..

 

I use itunes to get special requests etc before a gig... however it turns out that the small print in the licence forbids any sort of performace use with these files.. and infact all music from ITunes is illigal to use for DJing...

 

ho hum.... :hurt:

 

 

If that same music is available on prerecorded CD where on earth is the sense in their conditions?!

 

Oh well, I'll stick to Napster and 7Digital!

[mikeee 0]

But it makes perfect sense and has done for many years. iTunes, like all download sites and purchased CD's have the copyright restriction that they song can not be played in public. If you are doing an event other than a "family" party, you should have a PPL performance licence, unless you are booked by a venue / client to work for or more than 5 consecutive nights, then it becomes their responsibility. Weddings, Birthdays etc are "family" parties and not classified as a "proper" event, so no performance license is required.

I think thats the basics in a nutshell.

[NRG Roadshow 0]

Oh well, I'll stick to Napster and 7Digital!

 

Im not sure about 7 digital as I have never used it, but napster certainly has the clause in their T&Cs that forbids you from using any of their downloads for comercial purpous or public performance.

[Dukesy 0]

To be fair, all different angles can be commented on but like Andy said, there is confusion and none of us are exactly qualified to address the licence conditions.

In my earlier comment, I suggested that if the answers can not be found on the pro dub web site, contact them by phone fozzie.

[spinner 0]

But it makes perfect sense and has done for many years. iTunes, like all download sites and purchased CD's have the copyright restriction that they song can not be played in public. If you are doing an event other than a "family" party, you should have a PPL performance licence, unless you are booked by a venue / client to work for or more than 5 consecutive nights, then it becomes their responsibility. Weddings, Birthdays etc are "family" parties and not classified as a "proper" event, so no performance license is required.

I think thats the basics in a nutshell.

 

 

I remembered that after posting about 7Digital and Napster.

 

Performance restrictions are the same however the material is delivered.

 

 

[andyw 0]

i have just had a reply from produb and it confirms my post.

 

 

Hi,

 

 

 

Thanks for your enquiry.

 

 

 

You will need a Produb license to cover any tracks that you have copied. So if you have downloaded tracks from the internet to your computer than burn a CD copy that will need a license.

 

If you just download the tracks to your computer and play the tracks from the same computer than you will not need a license as no copy has been made.

 

With the CD’s you buy if you copy the tracks from the CD’s onto your computer you will need to license those copies and if you play the tracks directly from the bought CD’s then no license is needed.

 

 

 

IF you have any further questions please do not hesitate to contact the MCPS licensing team on 0208 378 7500.

 

 

 

Many Thanks

 

Joanna McNally l Music Licensing Agent l MCPS Licensing

 

MCPS l 41 Streatham High Road l London SW16 1ER

e: joanna.mcnally@mcps.co.uk

t: +44 (0)20 8378 7500

f: +44 (0)20 8378 7501

 

Visit our website è www.mcps-prs-alliance.co.uk

 

[fozziesdisco 0]

i have just had a reply from produb and it confirms my post.

Hi,

 

 

 

Thanks for your enquiry.

 

 

 

You will need a Produb license to cover any tracks that you have copied. So if you have downloaded tracks from the internet to your computer than burn a CD copy that will need a license.

 

If you just download the tracks to your computer and play the tracks from the same computer than you will not need a license as no copy has been made.

 

With the CD’s you buy if you copy the tracks from the CD’s onto your computer you will need to license those copies and if you play the tracks directly from the bought CD’s then no license is needed.

 

 

 

IF you have any further questions please do not hesitate to contact the MCPS licensing team on 0208 378 7500.

 

 

 

Many Thanks

 

Joanna McNally l Music Licensing Agent l MCPS Licensing

 

MCPS l 41 Streatham High Road l London SW16 1ER

e: joanna.mcnally@mcps.co.uk

t: +44 (0)20 8378 7500

f: +44 (0)20 8378 7501

 

Visit our website è www.mcps-prs-alliance.co.uk

 

Hi Andy w

I would like to say a big thank you to all of you who have commented/ contributed to this thread.

i have done as dukesy advised and contacted the pro dub office, and have got an identical explanation

as yours andy.

I think that taking all the information supplied by you here at d.j's united into account, i will be purchasing a pro dub licence, as i download most of my music to an external hard drive that i then use via my laptop at a gig.

Once again a big thank you to all of you.

 

fozzie :good:

 

[spinner 0]

You have been misinformed by no less than an MCPS representative.

 

A legal download gives you the right to burn to a CD - just like a shop bought one.

 

Unbelievable.

Edited August 28, 2008 by spinner

[Dukesy 0]

Hi Andy w

I would like to say a big thank you to all of you who have commented/ contributed to this thread.

i have done as dukesy advised and contacted the pro dub office, and have got an identical explanation

as yours andy.

I think that taking all the information supplied by you here at d.j's united into account, i will be purchasing a pro dub licence, as i download most of my music to an external hard drive that i then use via my laptop at a gig.

Once again a big thank you to all of you.

 

fozzie :good:

 

But do you have the right answer? If this is the only option for you, then that is your choice fozzie, but there are other options. From what I have read, two wrongs don't make a right. The information from the MCPS appears to be in conflict with info from the PPL. The Pro Dub licence is being adminstered by MCPS on behalf of itself and PPL.  It is a joint licence (MCPS/PPL). For details, please visit the pro dub website and cross reference with the PPL.

[spinner 0]

I spoke to Tom Weller at MCPS today.

 

He confirmed that because legal downloads are restricted to "private" ( ie non-commercial ) use only, the licence is required.

 

The restriction on "commercial" use of legal downloads burned to CD-R is a blanket one and includes DJ use not specifically but because of its all-encompassing nature which includes anything regarded as commercial and fails to make an exception for DJs.

 

This is laid down by the record companies not MCPS.

 

Tom Weller could see my point about the illogicality of the restriction but changes are not within the remit of MCPS.

 

So even if your playout method is CD only you can't take advantage of modern technology without the licence.

 

You're stuffed if you want to buy legal downloads and burn them.

 

So what will happen when pre-recorded CD singles are no longer available?

 

In a word this really is OUTRAGEOUS