Pros And Cons Of Powered Speakers

[Norfolk DJ 0]

I run Mackie SRM 450 and would highly recommend them. They are reliable, well made and produce an excellent sound. They also give 400 watts RMS so two gives 800 watts. For 12 inch drivers they produce a commendable amount of bass. Mackie subs are excelent as well but a little heavy for my liking so I would go for a DB Technology to use with them. As for price the SRM's are about £750 a pair.

 

Second option (and cheaper) are the DB Technology Opera series. These are 300 watts, but still very good, although imo not quite as good sound as the Mckies, still highly recommended. I would with either the mackie or the operas head for DB powered sub, because they are much lighter and cheaper than the mackie. If you go to Thomanns you get the 3 year warranty. From memory, the operas were about £590 apair and subs were £295 as well. I would think the 3 would cost about £900 if you check on the web. The Mackie package would cost £1250 ish.

 

Youa are correct. One sub will be fine. Add another if you require it.

[Dave80s 0]

The DB opera range is a bit confusing. Anyone on here got a pair? Which ones did you go for? I think the most suitable for me would be 402, which is 12" 300W RMS at £325 each. Although looking on the Thomann website, the 405's are cheaper at £295?!?

 

I think the Opera 41.15 sub is the best bet. Should the fact that I am going to run a DB sub affect my main speaker buying decision?

 

Mackie SRM450, are they 400W or 450W RMS?

[jeffwall 0]

they are 450watt rms

 

And bloody good speakers especially with the 1501 subs

[Norfolk DJ 0]

The DB opera range is a bit confusing. Anyone on here got a pair? Which ones did you go for? I think the most suitable for me would be 402, which is 12" 300W RMS at £325 each. Although looking on the Thomann website, the 405's are cheaper at £295?!?

 

I think the Opera 41.15 sub is the best bet. Should the fact that I am going to run a DB sub affect my main speaker buying decision?

 

Mackie SRM450, are they 400W or 450W RMS?

 

Mackies are 400 watts. (300 + 100)

 

Makes no difference whether you use a DB sub with a mackie. I think ed bray does as well.

 

DB actives. I have the brochure to hand. The output will be the same 300 watts (250 + 50) but one has 12inch drivers and the other 15inch. I don't know whether there is much difference really, although the bass tends to be better with the 15inch, could just be bthat Thomanns are doing a special on the 15inch version. There is only 1kg difference in weight as well. You will save £60 with the 15inch version, that would buy a set of covers to keep them in A1 condition.

 

Rob

[EdBray 0]

 

Mackies are 400 watts. (300 + 100)

 

Makes no difference whether you use a DB sub with a mackie. I think ed bray does as well.

Rob

 

 

 

My SRM450s are 400 watt RMS (300 +100). I do not like them as much with the one sub unless I am running them in full range mode (rather than the >120hz mode).

 

 

 

I think the SRM450s need a minimum of 2 subs if you are going to use them from the >120hz as the bottom end will not be enough with just 400 watts of bass if you are going to have 800watts of mids/highs. If you want to boost the sound with just one sub, make sure you run the SRM450s in full range.

 

 

 

My favourite setup, is to run a pair of Mackie SRM350s (150+50 watts rms) as mids/tops over either one or preferably two DB Tech 41.15s. I run the two subs together under the deckstand and have the 10" mid/tops on accessory horns (outriggers) off the deckstand uprights. The SRM350s are only running from the >120hz outputs of the subs and therefore are giving 400watts rms midrange and treble from a 10" driver/horn above 800watts rms of bass bins (acoustically coupled) which are doing the hard work with the lower frequencies. The sound is superb.

 

 

 

I actually think that to run the SRM450s to perfection actually requires a pair of 800watt rms subs (acoustically coupled) with the SRM450s set to just give the mid and treble frequencies.

 

 

 

If I was buying from scratch, I would either buy one 800 watt rms sub and a pair of Mackie SRM350s to use as the mid/top satellites, or 2x 400 watt subs and a pair of Mackie SRM350s as satellites, the second option is what I use for 60% of my gigs, the other 40% are just done with one 400watt sub and the Mackie SRM350s.

 

 

 

Since buying my Mackie SRM350s, I have not used the SRM450s. There is no need. I would probably only use them now if I was doing a gig with no sub and I thought the SRM350s would be unable to cope. Not happened yet, in fact I may well end up selling them in the future.

 

 

 

If money, space and weight were no object, I would buy a pair of 800watt rms subs and a pair of Mackie SRM450s, but if the space and weight were a problem, I would just buy a couple of Bose pole dancing things (L1s).

 

 

[Norfolk DJ 0]

My SRM450s are 400 watt RMS (300 +100). I do not like them as much with the one sub unless I am running them in full range mode (rather than the >120hz mode).

 

 

 

I think the SRM450s need a minimum of 2 subs if you are going to use them from the >120hz as the bottom end will not be enough with just 400 watts of bass if you are going to have 800watts of mids/highs. If you want to boost the sound with just one sub, make sure you run the SRM450s in full range.

 

 

Ed

 

What do you mean by full range? What's the difference?

 

Rob

[EdBray 0]

 

Ed

 

What do you mean by full range? What's the difference?

 

Rob

 

 

 

Hi Rob,

 

 

 

On most active subs, they offer two outputs, a direct parallel link which sends the full range signal from the subs to the tops, in this case the Mackie SRM450s. This means that the sub just adds a little more bass to the sound already supplied by a SRM450 if you just connected it directly to the mixer. The second output is usually an output from an active x-over internal to the Subbass, typically with a cutoff of below 120hz. If you send the signal to your SRM450 from this output, your SRM450 will be much more efficient, as it will not be having to handle the power hungry low frequencies and can give the full 300 watts rms of power to the mid range frequencies 120hz - 3khz and the high frequencies above this are still handled by the 100 watt rms horn. This is why a single 400watt rms bass bin will not be enough to run SRM450s from the >120Hz setting. The sound will be too trebly/shrill. The bass bin will then handle all frequencies from about 30Hz to about 150hz, but as your Mackies are now only mid/tops there will not be enough bass.

 

 

 

At the advanced audio seminar I recently attended it was suggested that you should have double the amount of bass bin power to that of your mid/tops. Therefore if you are using a pair of Mackie SRM450s and want to run them as mid/tops then you really should have 800 watt rms subs per SRM450. Then the next part suggests that you should not use bass bins as normal DJs do at each side of their rig, but should be used close together to allow for acoustic coupling, they do not have to be in the centre as bass is monaural.

 

Imagine you are at a still lake/pond and you throw two similar sized stones in about a metre apart, what happens to the ripples, where they meet they are cancelled out, now find a bigger stone with a similar surface area to the two smaller stones and throw that in, the ripples are much stronger and spread out with no dead areas. This is the same as how sound waves works.

 

 

 

This is not the case with the mid/tops which should be placed to give good stereo coverage about 6 - 10 ft apart and the driver should be at head height, with the horn above head height as the high frequencies are quickly absorbed.

 

 

 

So, If you want a good balanced outfit with a great sound and are starting from scratch, get a couple of 400watt bass bins and a couple of small mid/tops and run them as a balanced outfit.

 

 

 

If you already have a couple of 12" mid/tops i.e. Mackies, The Box, Kams, or whatever, then unless you get powerful bass bins, it will give you a better all round sound if you feed them with a full range signal and use the bass bins to enhance the lower end.

 

 

 

Just my thoughts, I am sure others will contradict me.

 

 

[Andy Westcott 0]

I don't know - I think you've explained it pretty well.

 

I would differ though concerning the interference effect of two bass bins operating at separate sides of the disco and the mono aspect; There is some directional information contained within the output of bass bins - Rough Drivers' "Deeper Love" is a good example of this - we mustn't forget that such bass bins produce notes of 100Hz and above.

 

Regarding the 'dead spot' debate, I'm unsure whether this really applies in an enclosed space, such as most of us gig in. There are many and complicated reflections within the room which will destroy any simple wave pattern, although outdoors the effect is quite noticeable and surprising in its degree - at certain positions it can sound as though someone has turned off the bass altogether!

 

As for bass requiring double the power of the mid/tops, that has to be a good guide; Depending on the type of music and the way you play it, you may even need more than this - 3 to 4 times. With my setup I can push the bass amps into the red, and still show only 2 - 3 lights on the VUs for the mid/tops. Basically, I need bigger bass amps, but that's my problem...

 

All good stuff. smile icon

Edited May 13, 2007 by Andy Westcott

[TonyB 0]

I don't know - I think you've explained it pretty well.

 

I would differ though concerning the interference effect of two bass bins operating at separate sides of the disco and the mono aspect; There is some directional information contained within the output of bass bins - Rough Drivers' "Deeper Love" is a good example of this - we mustn't forget that such bass bins produce notes of 100Hz and above.

 

Regarding the 'dead spot' debate, I'm unsure whether this really applies in an enclosed space, such as most of us gig in. There are many and complicated reflections within the room which will destroy any simple wave pattern, although outdoors the effect is quite noticeable and surprising in its degree - at certain positions it can sound as though someone has turned off the bass altogether!

 

As for bass requiring double the power of the mid/tops, that has to be a good guide; Depending on the type of music and the way you play it, you may even need more than this - 3 to 4 times. With my setup I can push the bass amps into the red, and still show only 2 - 3 lights on the VUs for the mid/tops. Basically, I need bigger bass amps, but that's my problem...

 

All good stuff. smile icon

 

I definitely notice an increase in volume if I put the bass bins next to each other but it affects sound. Possibly because I have it set up for a bass bin to be either side . I used to put them together for teenage parties but don't bother any more as it sounds better when they are apart.

 

Andy, how safe is it to run the MXF amps into the red? I usually keep it in the green for the bass bins but have had it flashing two lights into the red and not noticed any distortion. Do you just worry when all three red LED's light up?

[Welsh Audio Man 21 0]

I definitely notice an increase in volume if I put the bass bins next to each other but it affects sound. Possibly because I have it set up for a bass bin to be either side . I used to put them together for teenage parties but don't bother any more as it sounds better when they are apart.

 

Andy, how safe is it to run the MXF amps into the red? I usually keep it in the green for the bass bins but have had it flashing two lights into the red and not noticed any distortion. Do you just worry when all three red LED's light up?

 

Any amp going into red is not good, surely? my 18's have a tendency to put my 1600 into red, so just have to reduce the level, and keep em in amber, which is usually enough bass anyway.

[TonyB 0]

Any amp going into red is not good, surely? my 18's have a tendency to put my 1600 into red, so just have to reduce the level, and keep em in amber, which is usually enough bass anyway.

 

I bought the amp second hand so don't have the manual. There is no amber, but 7 green LED's and 4 red. The first red is at 0db. Usually it stays well in the green but I pushed it to see how loud it would go (as you do smile icon ) and with the fourth red flashing it still wasn't distorted (not third as I said before). It just that Andy said he pushes his into the red, I was just wondering how far is it safe to do it.

 

The MXF amps are pretty robust mosfet amps and have a separate amp and power supply for each channel so perhaps you can push them a bit.

[Dave80s 0]

Thanks for your comprehensive reply, Ed.

 

I don't think I would ever do a gig without a sub so your setup sounds right for me. Also the SRM350s are £130 cheaper than 450s! So you could buy another sub with the change.

 

Can you run 2 mackie SRM350s on one Opera 41.15 sub? Also do the Opera's have a hole for a stand which you could put the mackies on top. I know this would stop me from putting the subs in the middle, but it does look good and is easy to set up.

 

My main priorities are lightness, ease of setup and foolproofability (is that a word!?!) as I will be hiring the stuff out to trusted colleagues 5 or 6 times a year.

 

One last problem, sometimes my mate requests a small monitor - would you just buy a powered one and/or can anything be linked from the setup described above?

[jeffwall 0]

sorry to be a little blunt?

 

but why you considering the 350's opposed to the 450's?

 

No comparrison, the 450's are excellent and for small venues a sub is not required anyway when using these?

 

The 350's are really just for monitoring purposes i would say

 

cheers

[EdBray 0]

sorry to be a little blunt?

 

The 350's are really just for monitoring purposes i would say

 

cheers

 

Jeff, Have you actuall, seen or heard a pair of SRM350s? The difference between 200watt RMS and 400 watt RMS is only 3db which is barely noticeable at these spls. For a mid/top scenario a 10" speaker is actually better than a 12" speaker so that also makes a difference.

 

I have a pair of both SRM350s and SRM450s, I rarely use the 450s anymore, as the 350s and a Sub give me a better overall sound, and with 2 subs, a much better sound than the 450s alone, or even the 450s with a sub.

 

The balance from using a 15" sub with a pair of 10" mids and a horn gives a better more full sound. Than that from the SRM450s on their own, and as you are not putting any low frequencies through them the 10" driver supply the mid range frequencies goes painfully loud. This is then more akin to an actual 3 way active setup as the mids are not using any frequencies below 120hz, and if you did the same with the SRM450s you would massively overpower the subs with mid/top frequencies.

 

To get a similar effect with SRM450s you would have to have much bigger and more powerful subs and whilst I grant you that the SRM450s are better on their own than the SRM350s on THEIR own, the 350s are still surprisingly iseful for smaller gigs.

 

I can only speak as I have found, and I have tried all the combinations.and if I was buying from scratch I would plump for the RCF ART 310s which is their 10" version of the SRM350 and has been getting rave reviews and would not have bought the SRM450s at all. This does not mean that they aren't good, just not really rquired for the gigs that I do. Up to 200 people the SRM350s and a couple of Subs are plenty, and as I have never done a bigger gig than that, it is not a problem.

 

Thanks for your comprehensive reply, Ed.

 

I don't think I would ever do a gig without a sub so your setup sounds right for me. Also the SRM350s are £130 cheaper than 450s! So you could buy another sub with the change.

 

Can you run 2 mackie SRM350s on one Opera 41.15 sub? Also do the Opera's have a hole for a stand which you could put the mackies on top. I know this would stop me from putting the subs in the middle, but it does look good and is easy to set up.

 

My main priorities are lightness, ease of setup and foolproofability (is that a word!?!) as I will be hiring the stuff out to trusted colleagues 5 or 6 times a year.

 

One last problem, sometimes my mate requests a small monitor - would you just buy a powered one and/or can anything be linked from the setup described above?

 

Each DB Tech 41.15 has two pairs (left/right) of balanced outputs on its rear, the first is a parallel pass through for passing a full range signal to other speakers/amp (which I would use with SRM450s) and a pair of >120hz outputs for passing a mid/top signal to other speakers/amp (which I would use with the SRM350s).

 

Yes, the DB Tech 41.15 has a top hat in it for using a pole if required.

 

If you wanted to you could buy a The Box PA110A at £106 as your monitor (could also be used as an emegency backup), take the full range signal from the back of the Sub for it, or if you can afford it get another SRM350 and you would always have one as backup, For monitor use though, use the full range signal not the >120hz one.

 

 

Edited May 14, 2007 by EdBray

[Norfolk DJ 0]

 

 

No comparrison, the 450's are excellent and for small venues a sub is not required anyway when using these?

 

cheers

The SRM 450's will happily cover gigs for 150 people. You won't really need subs for a small venue with these. Fair enough if you do larger ve nues.

 

I have a pair of both SRM350s and SRM450s, I rarely use the 450s anymore, as the 350s and a Sub give me a better overall sound, and with 2 subs, a much better sound than the 450s alone, or even the 450s with a sub.

 

 

To get a similar effect with SRM450s you would have to have much bigger and more powerful subs and whilst I grant you that the SRM450s are better on their own than the SRM350s on THEIR own, the 350s are still surprisingly iseful for smaller gigs.

 

 

I have heard the SRM 350 and SRM 450 side by side and I reckon the 450 is a better all round buy because they won't need a sub most of the time. The SRM 350's probably will (although I agree they are very good).

 

 

[EdBray 0]

I have heard the SRM 350 and SRM 450 side by side and I reckon the 450 is a better all round buy because they won't need a sub most of the time. The SRM 350's probably will (although I agree they are very good).

 

Well as I have said, I have both, and in MY opinion only, the 350s with a Sub, sound better than the 450s without a sub. Both cost about the same price, I paid, £500 for a pair of new SRM350s and £280 for a new DB tech 41.15, total £780, and I paid £718 for my pair of new SRM450s.

 

I can then use the SRM350s without the sub for smaller venues (kids parties, small karaoke etc) and have done without any problems..

 

As I said, just my preference, I would suggest that anyone buying £800 worth of powered speakers, make a visit to a music shop and try to hear some before they buy..

Edited May 14, 2007 by EdBray

[Norfolk DJ 0]

Well as I have said, I have both, and in MY opinion only, the 350s with a Sub, sound better than the 450s without a sub. Both cost about the same price, I paid, £500 for a pair of new SRM350s and £280 for a new DB tech 41.15, total £780, and I paid £718 for my pair of new SRM450s.

 

I can then use the SRM350s without the sub for smaller venues (kids parties, small karaoke etc) and have done without any problems..

 

As I said, just my preference, I would suggest that anyone buying £800 worth of powered speakers, make a visit to a music shop and try to hear some before they buy..

 

fair enough. both have their advantages for the 350 & 450's. Both are excellent speakers

[jeffwall 0]

I listened to both before buying, but I ended up going for the 450's

 

Horses for courses....I was thinking from a "using without sub" point of view for smaller venues

 

Like say 120/150 people in a small ish venue, i didnt think the 350's would cope

 

But like you say, with subs....they would cope ok

 

 

[Dave80s 0]

I will go and have a listen then. I would be leaning towards the 350/sub setup though because I like a good bass sound!

 

I used to run my Peavey hisys 1s on their own, but once I added a sub I never looked back.

Edited May 15, 2007 by Dave80s

[jeffwall 0]

I would be leaning towards the 350/sub setup though because I like a good bass sound!

 

 

 

The only draw-back of this system is that you will nearly always need your subs! Sorry but even the excellent 350's would struggle on their own surely? Unless perhaps a kids disco?

 

With the 450's you may choose not to use subs/or use subs depending on the venue size?

 

So my point above about going for the 450's instead of the 350's would allow you more options in MY

opinion!

 

[Steve_Mitchell 0]

Going for the 450's instead of the 350's would allow you more options in MY

opinion!

 

Being a Mackie owner myself. I would tend to agree with the above comment. You never know when the BIG gig is coming.

 

[Dave80s 0]

I always use one sub or subs anyway. Why leave it at home?

 

Don't kids like bass :-)

 

I will have a listen to both anyway and then decide. Thanks for all the opinions.

 

Edited May 17, 2007 by Dave80s