Disco Cabs

[Loz 0]

Hi everyone, I need some pointers with regards to upgrading my sound system. After looking on the internet and around the shops there seems to be such a huge choice and price range. At the moment I have four mid range cabs all with 15" drivers and horns, they're not bad but they're not brilliant either! I've seen various different offers on peaveys from budget to top of the range cabs but is it worth spending more money? I understand you get what you pay for but can there really be such a big difference in the quality of the drivers they use? http://www.dj-forum.co.uk/html/emoticons/533.gif

[galaxypromotions 0]

hi, with regards to upgrading. what amp are you using?? if i were you (depending on what you are running) you would be wise to get the Peavey Pro 15s (250W RMS) and the Peavey Pro subs (300w RMS) 4 speakers and flying poles for 600 quid, and they are really good speakers, i have a system like this only i use 4 pro 15s and because they are 4 ohm speakers. i think xxx xxx store sell them

 

 

 

Post Edited. Please dont post sales links to other sites

Edited December 15, 2003 by NineLives

[Loz 0]

I Have a 1500w peavey and a 600w warrior amp which I use as a spare, but what I can't understand is you can pay £200 for a pair of speakers or you can £1500 so whats the difference? http://www.dj-forum.co.uk/html/emoticons/533.gif

[ChrisPointon 0]

QUOTE

but what I can't understand is you can pay £200 for a pair of speakers or you can £1500 so whats the difference?

 

A lot depends on what you are actually GETTING for your money, what sort of gigs you are doing, and the upstream audio in the chain before it (Mixer, any EQ Products etc), since your audio is only as strong as its weakest link, and it would be daft to connect a £2000 P.A Rig to a £39 Mixer with no EQ! http://www.dj-forum.co.uk/html/emoticons/rolleyes.gif .

 

If budget is what you are looking for, and you are just starting out and money is tight then there are reasonably respectable pairs of small 100 - 200W RMS Cabs in the £150 - £250 / pair price bracket, but don't plug them into a 1000W Amp http://www.dj-forum.co.uk/html/emoticons/wallbash.gif and don't expect them to cope with anything more than a small hall or pub with more than 100ish people .

 

At the end of the day you'll get what you pay for.....but only to SOME extent, and it can be overkill to spend £2000 on a system if you are just starting out or only do a weekly gig at the local boozer, or the Kids Disco at the Youth Club.

 

There is more involved to building a loudspeaker than just throwing a 12" driver and Piezo into a cab and hoping for the best http://www.dj-forum.co.uk/html/emoticons/smile.gif, but often you can end up paying just for the badge on the front of the speaker.

 

Many respected speaker manufacturers use the same Drivers, crossovers and horns as their competitors, and one of the biggest OEM speaker manufacturers is Eminence - who used to have the lions share of selling drivers to the big name Loudspeaker Market. So ultimately you may buy a speaker for £400 and then find a similar cab using exactly the same Driver and components for £290!, what you pay all depends on the manufacturer, their mark up, how "famous" they are, and the overheads of their distributors, just like anything else in the consumer market -Big name Trainers for example!.

 

There is a glut of cheaper loudspeakers coming onto the market from the Far East. Some are reasonably okay, and quite good quality for the money. Others are lemons, using the cheapest components possible often Automotive or uprated hi-fi drivers and not made for anything other than bedroom use!.

 

Beware of dealers exaggerating the Rating of the speakers, it has been stated by me 1000 of times, but I will say it again....ALWAYS GET THE CONTINUOUS RMS RATING of a loudspeaker before you buy!. Dealers may try and push the power handling of cheaper products using Peak, PMPO or Maximum figures!. For example a 600W maximum rated speaker, may only comfortably handle 200W RMS of power for very long periods! http://www.dj-forum.co.uk/html/emoticons/excl.gif . Connecting a 400W Peak rated Speaker to a 1000W RMS Amplifier will prove my point very quickly http://www.dj-forum.co.uk/html/emoticons/smile.gif . If in doubt look at the method of connection into the speaker. If it uses a combination of Jack Socket and Banana Type Plugs / screw terminals then the power handling is unlikely to be anything above 200W RMS. If it uses Jacks only then no more than 300W RMS. Most speakers nowadays use "Speakon" Type sockets, and its almost certain that any professional cab rated above 300W RMS will only use XLR or Speakon type connectors. If the speaker that you are looking at is marketed as being 700W and it has banana plugs on the back of it, then walk away very quickly!.

 

Final Tip:- When choosing cheaper speakers, always look out for the ones using compression drivers or horn driven tweeters. They sound far nicer and better quality than the piezo type. Also look at build quality, and trust your instincts!.

[kazzachi 0]

...and you will probably appreciate why you pay more for speakers when the clients come up and compliment you on the nice sound! How clients hate leaving a function with an awful "whooshing" in their ears because of a nasty sound system!

[Ian Stuart 0]

This may seem like a daft comment but when shopping around for speakers (on whatever budget), ACTUALLY shop around. Speakers, amps and indeed alot of the equipment we all use is quite costly and you wouldn't spend hundreds of pounds on something else like a new TV without comparing various manufacturers products and being certain of what you are getting. http://www.dj-forum.co.uk/html/emoticons/nono.gif

 

Try, if possible to get some advice from someone who knows what they are talking about (for example the members of this Forum) before parting with your money or at least make sure you hear the kit in action. It is quite easy (as Chris P has said) to be mis-led by trumped-up wattage claims and also confused by the issue of OHMS. It will be a time consuming business comparing speakers / amps etc, as much as anything because you'll most likely have to do some travelling, but it will be worth it.

 

Let me just indulge in an example : I recently bought a pair of IDEX 300watt speakers as spare kit and so that an enthusiastic lad I know can start off DJ'ing, borrowing equipment from me. Now, the chap I bought them off had been using them for around a year and said they were good stuff so I didn't bother to have a listen in advance of buying, silly boy ! http://www.dj-forum.co.uk/html/emoticons/fear.gif When I set them up at home to test them (fortunately I live in a detached house) I found them to have far too much "middle". Consequently, I had to buy a seperate 15 a channel Soundlab EQ to cut the middle down (cost £150) as the one on the mixer wasn't flexible enough to give the sound I needed. It worked a treat.

 

Buying a seperate EQ may sound a bit over the top to some people who think that as long as it sounds "OK" and is loud enough, the punters will like it. Well, to back up another posters comments, it's often the quality that makes the difference at a gig, not the volume. On the very first gig that this rig was used, several people came up to comment just how "nice" the music sounded and what good quality it was. As a consequence of this I got rid of a load of cards on the night and took another 2 bookings there and then !

 

In summary, I think one of the best bits of advice I feel I can give to DJ's just starting out is make your choice of kit by getting guidance from people in the know and by phsically using your ears and analysing what you hear. Loud may be proud but quality speaks for itself.

 

Regards to all

 

Ian Stuart

 

 

 

 

 

[ChrisPointon 0]

On some speakers it is possible to change the sensitivity of the horn by changing a resisitor value on the X-over, or the Resistor - Capacitor network soldered on the back of the horn driver, however you really need to know what you are doing to do this but I'm always happy to advise http://www.dj-forum.co.uk/html/emoticons/smile.gif .

 

Fane used to produce a X-over which had a handy jumper link (a plastic tag which slides onto a row of pins) on the PCB to allow the user to easily select the attenuation / sensitivity of the horn (usually 24db/ 12db / 6db) to suit their own System. This was a really useful feature, which sadly, no other manufacturer adopted and would solve most of the problems of "toppy" or screeching horn drivers in some applications.

 

The other way, of course, as Ian mentioned is to use some form of EQ between your Mixer and Amp which gives a more finite control over the P.A than the conventional Bass / Treble Mixer controls. Cheap EQ's can now be picked up for less than 100 notes.

 

You sound system can also be greatly enhanced by adding a Sound Enhancer. Many people think these are a gimmick, but I use one myself, and they really do work http://www.dj-forum.co.uk/html/emoticons/smile.gif and do make your system appear louder and clearer without consuming any "headroom" from your amplifier. I use a behringer model, and even on my smaller 1000W system using it gives a more tighter bass and much cleaner top end.

 

For me, the Ohm RW Series offer a great level of sound for medium sized venues. I use a combination of either the RWS3 (300W) or RWS5 (350W) Cabs, pole mounted, on top of the RWS Subwoofer (300W) giving a power handling of 600 - 650W RMS per channel, and they sound great http://www.dj-forum.co.uk/html/emoticons/thumbup.gif

 

If you want good performance for your £ look around for 2nd hand EV Eliminators. The older versions, in my opinion, sounded much more DJ Friendly than the new ones, and 2nd hand will cost you around £150 - £200 per cab, which for the quality of the units is excellent value and pretty much bulletproof. A combination of the EV Subs and Top cabs will easily handle 700 - 750 Watts RMS per channel and they sound great http://www.dj-forum.co.uk/html/emoticons/thumbup.gif, and if you are buying 2nd hand these are the ones to go for. They were favoured by musicians and Bands so check out your local music store, Loot or Music Mags for 2nd hand EV Cabs - there are still plenty about!.

 

 

 

 

[Ian Stuart 0]

That's really interesting Chris, I've been looking on the 'net at the Behringer sound enhancer but can't really understand how it works. Does it act in a similar way to a compresser?

 

Good to know someone who uses one who can advise................

 

Ian Stuart

[ChrisPointon 0]

No idea exactly how they work, but it's all about enhancing and boosting certain frequencies in the Audio Chain which are more sensitive and pleasing to the human ear. Hence why the Amp Signal Level remains almost the same, but the enhancement sounds more pleasing to the Ear http://www.dj-forum.co.uk/html/emoticons/smile.gif .

 

There are controls on the unit which allows you to vary the level of enhancement on Bass and Treble frequencies, and whether you want a tight or smooth level of Bass Enhancement. The Bass Boost is useful, especially if you use Bass Bins or Subs on your system. The unit itself looks just like a budget Active X-over, but simply fits between your Mixer Output and Amp inputs, and you really can hear the difference on any system.

 

There is no limiting or compression involved, just enhancement and more control over Bass & Treble.

[kazzachi 0]

Does anyone really buy speakers without using their ears? I dont know about all the technical bits and bobs, I leave that to my dear old man, but I do know what sounds good and what doesnt! I would never consider buying sound equipment without listening to its capabilities and cleaness first!

[Ian Stuart 0]

I know what you're saying Kazzachi but it always amazes me what people do ! I know a lad who recently bought a pair of "big bright red" speakers from a Disco shop in South Manchester (I shan't say exactly where) without listening to them. He beleived the speel given by the sales guy and they looked impressive. When he got them home, they sounded s:cense:t.

 

All the wattage claims and so on seemed way over the top and frankly he got shafted.

 

He learned the hard way.

 

 

Ian Stuart

[ChrisPointon 0]

Aha Kazz, but its the same when buying cars (or shoes) in what Sounds Pleasing to one person, may be awful to another and the more control that you have over your system - more power to you the D.J!.

 

Also speaker systems can sound great in a nice little demo room in the shop (Complete with carpeted walls and egg box insulation! - they may even by using enhancement themselves to sell them!!!) but take them into a large 18th Century Town Hall with 400 people and a high ceiling and they Sound carp (fish for tea again?? http://www.dj-forum.co.uk/html/emoticons/rolleyes.gif )

 

To judge a P.A system properly, you would need to demo it in almost every venue you cover, with various numbers of people on the dancefloor, and various situations http://www.dj-forum.co.uk/html/emoticons/scared.gif . Having additional EQ and Enhancement is just about having greater control over a rig, and being able to fine tune it to suit it's environment.

[ChrisPointon 0]

Anybody thinking of making their own Speaker Cabs, may find these links of some use http://www.dj-forum.co.uk/html/emoticons/smile.gif

 

Speaker Plans

 

Freeware Speaker Design Program

 

Eminence Loudspeaker Drivers

 

For custom built cabs, I recommend using Eminence / Celestion / P.Audio drivers for your components. Of course I am always happy to quote for any Eminence components you may require http://www.dj-forum.co.uk/html/emoticons/tongue.gif .

 

 

[Ian Stuart 0]

QUOTE

No idea exactly how they work, but it's all about enhancing and boosting certain frequencies in the Audio Chain which are more sensitive and pleasing to the human ear. Hence why the Amp Signal Level remains almost the same, but the enhancement sounds more pleasing to the Ear  . There are controls on the unit which allows you to vary the level of enhancement on Bass and Treble frequencies, and whether you want a tight or smooth level of Bass Enhancement. The Bass Boost is useful, especially if you use Bass Bins or Subs on your system. The unit itself looks just like a budget Active X-over, but simply fits between your Mixer Output and Amp inputs, and you really can hear the difference on any system. There is no limiting or compression involved, just enhancement and more control over Bass & Treble

 

Chris, are you able to supply members with these Behringer Enhancers and if so, how much would you want for one ?

 

Ian Stuart

[Loz 0]

Thanks for all your replies, I understand what you mean about the type of venues and how often the rig gets used etc... All I'm after is a good set up that will do the kids parties but also have enough power to do the likes of marquees etc..... I suppose you are talking serious bucks to get a set up to cover both ends of the scale. My cabs I have at the moment were cheap off the interent and they do sound cheap as well, they seem to blast the sound out instead of playing it, does that make sense?? I know you can't expect alot for £200 and I know you have to walk before you can run but as mentioned in earlier threads getting the sound right is absolutely paramount. It just gets so confusing when there are so many different makes and sizes, I can't afford the dogs http://www.dj-forum.co.uk/html/emoticons/censored.gif in speakers just at the moment but if I can something close then that'll do for now.

[NineLives 0]

QUOTE

Behringer Enhancers

 

I can also vouch that it does make a big improvement to a sound system, I was sceptical before buying and could hardly believe the diff after using it, if you press the bypass on the enhancer the music then sounds lifeless.

 

I use mine with a Peavy Amp and Proel Speaker system.

 

This is the one I use

 

Click Me Behringer

[ChrisPointon 0]

Yes Ian, I can supply about 90% of the Behringer product range. Is their any model that you are interested in?, or would you just like some suggestions?.

 

Loz, try and always put your budget into Sound Equipment first, before buying any fancy lighting. Your clients would probably not notice an additional lighting effect, but would notice a poor quality of sound - or if they can't hear what you are saying on the mic!.

 

As a general rule of thumb if starting for the 1st time and on a tight budget then try and split your capitol 70 / 30 in favour of the majority going on a reasonable Sound System, and worry about lighting upgrades and lasers later!. Remember, a good quality 400W system is far better than a poorly matched 500W one, so try not to cut corners. A budget, usable P.A system for around £300 - £350 is feasible if done correctly and if used in fairly small halls and pubs, but certainly anything under this figure is better resigned to the bedroom.

 

Everybody has gigs at some point where the red "clip" or "peak" indicators have flashed on their amp, however if this happens at every gig, or if they are lit in a similar manner to the power led!, then it is time to upgrade, and sooner rather than later. Not only do you risk damage to speakers and delicate horn drivers, and overheating you Amp by clipping your P.A, but you increase the distortion tenfold and it makes it painful to listen to.

[Ian Stuart 0]

Yes Ian, I can supply about 90% of the Behringer product range. Is their any model that you are interested in?, or would you just like some suggestions?.

 

Thanks Chris, I've been looking on the Behringer website and there seems to be more than one model. I'm interested in suggestions, which model do you use?

[ChrisPointon 0]

Okay - prices for the miracle working little silver and black boxes then...

 

My own unit is the bog standard model which does the job with basic controls and has few fancy lights and flashing knobs. Ideal for the beginner who doesn't want a degree from Jodrell Bank to set one up. Model Number:- Dualfex Pro EX2200 Price £67.00

 

Next one up is the Pro EX3200 which has more features than the EX2200 but basically does the same job on a nuts and bolts level http://www.dj-forum.co.uk/html/emoticons/smile.gif . The EX3200 has slightly better bass enhancement and more flashing lights. Price is £84.00

 

Now the fancy one.......

 

The DSP1424P (Ninelives' unit) - these are digital signal processors rather than sound enhancers, but do much the same job but with a more finite control. On a larger, more powerful system you would reap the benefits of using a unit like this, but for lower powered systems it would be overkill. This unit has 3D enhancement which means that you get a Surround Sound effect from a stereo P.A system (The Dualfex has this facility to, but not as comprehensive as this). Another useful feature is the built in peak limiter to protect your P.A system from clipping, meaning that you don't need a seperate Compressor / Limiter, although puritans may find the harsh nature of peak limiting without compression a problem. The DSP1424P is a nice unit with lots of features and will prove to be a positive purchase when used with a larger system. Price £99.00

 

 

[NineLives 0]

QUOTE

it would be overkill

 

LOL ! thats me http://www.dj-forum.co.uk/html/emoticons/laugh.gif

 

Just like the new smoke machine, managed to clear a room full of punters at the weekend in a small venue with an over zealous push of the smoke button and club quality fluid, Hhhhhhhhhiiiiiiiisssssssssssssssssssss , you couldnt see your hands if you held them out in front of you WHITE OUT ! http://www.dj-forum.co.uk/html/emoticons/sterb188.gif

 

Antari Z1500, I knew I shoulda gone for the smaller Z1000, but thats me I like BIG toys http://www.dj-forum.co.uk/html/emoticons/laugh.gif

 

Purchase in haste , regret it later ! http://www.dj-forum.co.uk/html/emoticons/rolleyes.gif

Edited December 17, 2003 by NineLives

[jackwabbit 0]

QUOTE (NineLives @ Dec 17 2003, 03:36 PM)

QUOTE it would be overkill   LOL ! thats me http://www.dj-forum.co.uk/html/emoticons/laugh.gif   Just like the new smoke machine, managed to clear a room full of punters at the weekend in a small venue with an over zealous push of the smoke button and club quality fluid, Hhhhhhhhhiiiiiiiisssssssssssssssssssss , you couldnt see your hands if you held them out in front of you WHITE OUT ! http://www.dj-forum.co.uk/html/emoticons/sterb188.gif   Antari Z1500, I knew I shoulda gone for the smaller Z1000, but thats me I like BIG toys http://www.dj-forum.co.uk/html/emoticons/laugh.gif   Purchase in haste , regret it later ! http://www.dj-forum.co.uk/html/emoticons/rolleyes.gif I hope the venue didn't have smoke detectors!

[Titan 0]

hi there...

 

 

i dont think that fog from the fog machines actually affects the smoke detectors.

 

me and my friend bought a nice 700 watt fogger for our rig, and decided to test it out.

 

my friend, being over the top, totaly smoked out my bedroom (with a smoke alarm located directly outside it) and still didnt set the alarm off.

 

im not sure weather this is to do with the fog fluid, being glycol based, or weather there was somethng wrong with the alarm system .. lol http://www.dj-forum.co.uk/html/emoticons/laugh.gif

[Sir_Toby 0]

Hi. Im new, and need to buy a full P.A system on a budget.

Price range £200-350, I have a gig on the 30th for a max of 200 people, so need the system.

 

Chris you said you can get a good system for £300. Ive done some searching and found a few contenders. To save a few pennies Ive found package deals.

 

Gemini GSM 1250 with X1 Amp (85 WRMS@8 ohms)

Gemini GSM 1550 with X2 Amp (140 WRMS@8 ohms)

SkyTec 250 with Skytec 500 Amp (90W RMS@8 ohms)

Ive shown the RMS output of the amps here

 

Any other package deals out there??

What have people heard about these systems?

What do you guys suggest?

 

Ill be really greatful for any help.

 

Thanks

[ChrisPointon 0]

Hmmm, I would go for something with a little more power than 80W or 150W http://www.dj-forum.co.uk/html/emoticons/scared.gif . I often recommend a minimum of a 250W x 250W amp - which will deliver around 160 - 170W RMS per channel into one set of speakers http://www.dj-forum.co.uk/html/emoticons/smile.gif. Should do small functions and pubs etc.

 

I reckon I can still do you a 250 x 2 Amp and suitable speakers on a budget of around £300. let me check tomorrow and see what deals I can do.

 

Seriously 80W is around the same output as a large home hi-fi system and is going to struggle with any sort of Disco.

[Sir_Toby 0]

Sorry. Those are RMS values per channel.

 

Chris, I saw your

Budget System:-

 

(1x) Soundlab SP500 (2x 250W @ 4 ohms Amplifier)

(2x) Soundlab 15-200 15" 200W 2- Way Loudspeakers

Leads

 

Price:- £290.00 + Delivery

 

I cant find any information on the speakers. Whats there series name and number?

Also whats the spec of them? 200W ?RMS? ?@4ohms?

 

Time isnt really an issue for me to get a P.A. system as I can borrow a mates. But I do want to get my own sometime.

 

Any help is really appreciated

Edited January 9, 2004 by Sir_Toby