Dj Licences! Grrrrrrrr

[djn_discos 0]

ok ive had a look round at what you need to be legal and ive gone roud in circles!! do you need a licence or not? heres the stats

 

mobile dj

useing laptop and pioneer cdjs

 

do i need a licence or not?

 

had a look at one forum somewere and it said the only licence that was required was suspended under reveiw. then i looked at another and its knockin on for £300 for a digital dj licence that apparentley you have to have to operate? whats true and whats complete mush?

 

if i doo need a licence what do i need and were from?

 

cheers

[deejaymitch 0]

It is a nightmare.

 

If you only use original CDs and legally downloaded MP3s you are ok (for now).

 

If you have burned downloaded MP3s to CD, or have ripped CDs to MP3, some would claim you are required to have a ProDub License. Which is an absolute disgrace.

[Robster 0]

yes there is a licence for djs who have CONVERTED music from CD to mp3 or another digital format to play those converted tracks to the public..this is called the ProDub licence more information can be found here

 

http://www.prsformusic.com/musicforproduct...DubLicence.aspx

 

BUT if you legally downloaded the files from a legal site in the format you are going to use to the performance hard drive and the site selling you the tracks has given you permission to play said track you do not need a licence as no conversion has taken place.

 

If you are using original CD discs you do not need a licence.

 

venues in general should hold a prs licence to allow the public performance of music that is something not usually up to the DJ but the venue.

 

hope this helps

[Dream Catchers 0]

If you are using MP3s that you have ripped from CD then you require the ProDub license.

There is some confusion on the subject of legally downloaded MP3s, one person from PD stated that you didn't need the license for them, another source said legal downloads are only licensed for personal use so a PD license is needed.

 

I cannot find the source of the two statements and things may have changed one way or the other.

 

There was one of the FAQs on the PD site where they said that if you took out a license for the first year and then in subsiquent years only used tracks already converted and legal downloads you wouldn't need to renew, however, the legal downloads reference has now been removed.

 

Jim

[djn_discos 0]

ok cheers lads thats a big help, just a few more niggles.

 

1) how would these people know if you have put the cds on ur hard drive from a cd and not downloaded?

2) do you need a licence to comply with PLI insurance?

3) if i have cdr's with music on them, whats not saying i have the originals at home and i just dont want to wreck them with the mobile dj'ing?

4) the main one.....is it a legal requirement?

5) how can they enforce what they want you to do? (as in only have 5000 tracks on your laptop) can they just turn up to a gig? or can they legally check your laptop if needbe?

 

sorry if i sound dumb

[Dream Catchers 0]

ok cheers lads thats a big help, just a few more niggles.

 

1) how would these people know if you have put the cds on ur hard drive from a cd and not downloaded?

2) do you need a licence to comply with PLI insurance?

3) if i have cdr's with music on them, whats not saying i have the originals at home and i just dont want to wreck them with the mobile dj'ing?

4) the main one.....is it a legal requirement?

5) how can they enforce what they want you to do? (as in only have 5000 tracks on your laptop) can they just turn up to a gig? or can they legally check your laptop if needbe?

 

sorry if i sound dumb

To be honest it is a legal minefield and as far as I am aware nobody has made any legal challenges against them due to costs.

 

1) how would these people know if you have put the cds on ur hard drive from a cd and not downloaded?

They would need to examine your HD and you would presumably need to produce proof of the legal downloads.

 

2) do you need a licence to comply with PLI insurance?

It has nothing to do with public liability, it is a copyright issue.

 

3) if i have cdr's with music on them, whats not saying i have the originals at home and i just dont want to wreck them with the mobile dj'ing?

Again, I don't think there has been a legal challenge about this, with software you are allowed to use 'backups' and keep the originals safe, not sure about music CDs though.

 

4) the main one.....is it a legal requirement?

It is covered by copyright law.

 

5) how can they enforce what they want you to do? (as in only have 5000 tracks on your laptop) can they just turn up to a gig? or can they legally check your laptop if needbe?

There is no limit to the number of tracks you have, you must buy the license that covers the appropriate number though.

As for thier powers of search, again this is a very grey area. They already control the licenses that the premises need and within those licenses they now put the onus on the licensed premises to ensure that anybody performing at the premises have the appropriate license. This is where it gets a little tricky, the landlords/managers have no legal right to inspect your music collection, even the police need a warrant to do so. If you tell the venue that you are exempt from the license due to either legal downloads or using original media then they have to accept what you say, the PD team do not issue a certificate of exemption or anything simular, if you are exempt there is also no reason for you to show up on the PD database of licensed customers, also if you do not have a license you have no obligation to let somebody 'inspect' your collection. If you do buy a license you waive this right.

So onto how do they inspect it!, well, if you have purchased a license then you agree that they can inspect your collection and that you will furnish them with a complete list of tracks, details of the source etc within 28 days of them requesting it.

If you don't have a license then they would need to get a warrant to sieze and inspect your collection. To get the warrant they need to have reasonable grounds to believe that you are using illegal music, it is unlikely that they will get a warrant on a Saturday night in the middle of a gig (they need a judge to issue the warrant), also they would need to sieze your collection while you are using it, because if they simply came to your home 2 days after the event they wouldn't be able to prove that the media found at home was actually the same as was being used.

 

Add to this that on their site they say this :-

30. What would happen if I refused to take out a ProDub Licence?

 

We hope that those individuals who do require a ProDub Licence will obtain one and we strongly advise them to do so. If such individuals refuse to take out the licence and our licensing team are unable to ensure that they do then the matter will be passed to our legal team who will take appropriate legal action given the specific circumstances in each case.

That suggests that if the suspect you need one and they catch you, they will ask you to get one before they try any legal action.

 

Jim

Edited April 1, 2009 by JimBoylan

[djn_discos 0]

To be honest it is a legal minefield and as far as I am aware nobody has made any legal challenges against them due to costs.

 

1) how would these people know if you have put the cds on ur hard drive from a cd and not downloaded?

They would need to examine your HD and you would presumably need to produce proof of the legal downloads.

 

2) do you need a licence to comply with PLI insurance?

It has nothing to do with public liability, it is a copyright issue.

 

3) if i have cdr's with music on them, whats not saying i have the originals at home and i just dont want to wreck them with the mobile dj'ing?

Again, I don't think there has been a legal challenge about this, with software you are allowed to use 'backups' and keep the originals safe, not sure about music CDs though.

 

4) the main one.....is it a legal requirement?

It is covered by copyright law.

 

5) how can they enforce what they want you to do? (as in only have 5000 tracks on your laptop) can they just turn up to a gig? or can they legally check your laptop if needbe?

There is no limit to the number of tracks you have, you must buy the license that covers the appropriate number though.

As for thier powers of search, again this is a very grey area. They already control the licenses that the premises need and within those licenses they now put the onus on the licensed premises to ensure that anybody performing at the premises have the appropriate license. This is where it gets a little tricky, the landlords/managers have no legal right to inspect your music collection, even the police need a warrant to do so. If you tell the venue that you are exempt from the license due to either legal downloads or using original media then they have to accept what you say, the PD team do not issue a certificate of exemption or anything simular, if you are exempt there is also no reason for you to show up on the PD database of licensed customers, also if you do not have a license you have no obligation to let somebody 'inspect' your collection. If you do buy a license you waive this right.

So onto how do they inspect it!, well, if you have purchased a license then you agree that they can inspect your collection and that you will furnish them with a complete list of tracks, details of the source etc within 28 days of them requesting it.

If you don't have a license then they would need to get a warrant to sieze and inspect your collection. To get the warrant they need to have reasonable grounds to believe that you are using illegal music, it is unlikely that they will get a warrant on a Saturday night in the middle of a gig (they need a judge to issue the warrant), also they would need to sieze your collection while you are using it, because if they simply came to your home 2 days after the event they wouldn't be able to prove that the media found at home was actually the same as was being used.

 

Add to this that on their site they say this :-

 

That suggests that if the suspect you need one and they catch you, they will ask you to get one before they try any legal action.

 

Jim

 

 

excellent jim that great info :Thumbup: thanks

[Dukesy 0]

Not a dumb question. Although all information regarding the licence is available on their web site, it most certainly is a little confusing. Some DJs have said that the 'answers' to direct questions from the source (licence provider) are not clear at all, i.e. there is poor info about who does not need the licence.

That said, there has been a great improvement in advice and info offered.

 

Anyway, if you use CD originals when performing - currently, no licence required.

If you legally purchase digital files and download direct to the performing hard drive - currently, no licence required - always read the terms and conditions of UK legal download sites.

If you download a file to one computer and then copy the file to another computer, technically, you are copying a file - two files exist in your possession. Therefore, it is wise to read the terms and conditions of the download provider as well as the scope of the dub licence before assuming anything.

If ever in doubt - read the T&Cs!

 

If you transfer music from original CDs to mp3 / digital files - dub licence required. Why? Because you are operating in a commercial capacity - you have not purchased a digital download file! (UK legal download).

Note: The term used when copying a track from a CD to a digital file is 'format shifting'.

 

The licence issuers have the authority under copyright law to introduce licences, including setting the rate (tariff) and how it is enforced and managed.

 

i was told that nobody has the right to inspect your computer / laptop on venue premises unless

*you willingly grant permission there and then

an authorised representative of the licensing body is accompanied by at least two of her majesty's constabulary and in possession of a valid warrant

her majesty's Customs and Excise officers choose to pay a visit!

 

*If you require and purchase the licence, you effectively grant permission for the licensing issuer to inspect your pc / laptop / recording media at your home. Always read the terms and conditions of the contract.

 

If you play music too loud and decline to cooperate with Environmental Health, your equipment can be confiscated - usually in the presence / accompanied by her majesty's constabulary.

 

Venues have to abide by law to the new 17th edition. So before a client hires a venue or a DJ plugs into the venue electrics, who enforces the requirement for current & valid safety certificate for the electrical installation confirming to the new 17th edition electrical regulations (IEE Wiring Regulations BS 7671) to be in place????

 

I'm no legal expert but if you are unsure of your rights, warrants, Health and safety, PLI, PAT, etc, everything is available on line to Google!

 

Side note: At no extra cost, Mixmash offer all monthly titles and their classic volumes as MPEG2 files.

Compatible with most DJ/VJ software solutions, cutting out the time consuming ripping and renaming of files from DVDs, video and audio is enhanced.

 

When broadband speeds increase, no doubt, they will provide the service online too! smile icon

 

visit www.mixmash.com

[djn_discos 0]

nice one dukesy. bit more info i need, and no dout alot more people starting up will need

[McCardle 1]

Of course there is nothing wrong or illegal with continuing to play legally obtained original cd's at private functions. In most cases this requires no license and a princely £0 in total license outlay

 

Of course in some areas it may not be considered cool to do such old fashioned things but its a course that some of us are still sailing.

 

Nearly all of the licenses mentioned above only apply if you use a hard drive based system or rip from one format to another. There is still the legal ' license free' way too

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

(for now )

Edited April 1, 2009 by McCardle

[djn_discos 0]

i legally download all the time and all my cd's are originals :lol2:

 

i therefor do not need a licence.........yet lol

 

from what i have read about all these licences they are a blady ripp off and are not needed!!

 

grrrr laws these days get up my nose!

[dj will 0]

Some people are pro Pro-Dub License, as they say that it removes the Dodgy Decks Dave's of our world but most people tend to agree that it is just another way to fleece us out of our money. I am sure if the address of their office was known there would be a similiar situation to that at RBS today!

[Robster 0]

After discussion with other KJ's i have been told of people with dodgy collections with a pro dub licence when the pro dub people were asked what checks to verify they were told its a gentlemen's agreement.

 

I would guess that there are a minor few with a licence that think they have legitimised there dodgy illegal collection.

 

without active checking and testing no one can be sure either way in my opinion.

[Dukesy 0]

i legally download all the time and all my cd's are originals :lol2:

 

i therefor do not need a licence.........yet lol

 

from what i have read about all these licences they are a blady ripp off and are not needed!!

 

grrrr laws these days get up my nose!

 

Those who want to be 'legit' and 'on the right side of the law' when starting out / practicing as a service might also consider looking into the following.

 

Providing a hire service? Register with the Inland Revenue. Sure, you'll pay more Tax, but who wants to face the prospect of being caught out? Sure, laws change....and penalty's usually increase!

 

Use a car for your disco business? Get business insurance. You'll pay more than domestic insurance but will be correctly insured in the event of an accident on the way to / from a gig with the gear in the car. Happy days.

 

Disco equipment cost you a lot of money? Burgled on a Thursday with a Wedding on the Saturday? Get it all insured. Not as expensive as one would think actually. For the cost of a gig, you'll have piece of mind inside the venue while you leave back-up kit in the vehicle, and then some!

 

Work in public places or quality venues? Get comprehensive PLI cover. Not a legal requirement, but makes sense in the event of a claim. More venues are requesting PLI cover to be in place at higher levels than £1 - £2m.

 

Accept booking fees over the internet? Follow the distance selling regs. You are a service remember!

 

Hire out disco equipment? Get dry hire insurance cover. Again, in the event of a claim, you'd be covered.

 

Want to copy your CDs to mp3s for public use? Get the pro dub licence. Without bands and musicians, DJs are more or less nothing! We can do our part to support their cause - buy original CDs or download tracks from legal UK sources. The licence of course bridges the gap for those who choose to copy their CDs to digital file format instead of buying / replacing music (which would obviously benefit the music industry a lot more..... given the present climate!!! ) but obviously, the 'licence' will not eradicate online piracy, dodgy street selling or 'iffyrom' sales under the pub table.

 

Love music? If you truly love music, don't support piracy - always buy from legit sources. Don't download entire music collections over the torrent sites which are reported as low / poor sound quality and may contain malicious virus code such as Trojan horse and other malware.

 

Can't do the gig you took the deposit for? Inform the client. DON'T pass the booking on to another service and not inform the client.

 

Don't have a contract? Suggest you download a template from the Knowledgebase or choose pointers relevant to your service and pay a few £££'s to have it legally proofed.

 

Think there is too much red tape in providing a disco service? Not really. Sure, it takes effort, and I appreciate that not all of us are business minded, but the basics can be followed, and with a little patience and a willingness to want to succeed, a quality business service CAN work.

 

Edited April 1, 2009 by Dukesy

[McCardle 1]

as they say that it removes the Dodgy Decks Dave's of our world

 

Non of these new fangled licenses address the core problems, and to my mind the more conventional means of piracy (ie physical media such as CD's or DVD's) are still just as rife and plentiful on the market stalls, computer fairs and car boot sales as the newer digital means and essentially, other than the technology and delivery nothing has changed or improved much since the days of duplicated cassette tapes. I'm sure there are DJ's out there who are buying their media from the spiv's doing the rounds in the local pubs and the boot fairs and playing it back on a Cd player as there are downloading it themselves onto a digital means, but which area of the pro-dub license tackles Deejays turning up with several boxes of non original cd's.

 

Currently the pro-dub licenses encourages venues to check for DJ's who may be transfering their original cd material to laptop or hard drive based players without a license, yet it does nothing to check whether the cd's in a non digital dj's collection are legitimate. Provided they are not seen to be using a digital means of playback then the venue isn't expected / required to check?.

 

In short those who have never bought a genuine original Cd get off scot free, yet those who are transfering cd's that they have bought legitimately but who then later choose to transfer to another means of playback for flexibility have to pay and then are actively policed by the venues they are booked to work in?.

 

I think in light of the recent youtube fiasco, that the whole existing 'victorian' copyright laws in the UK need to be dragged kicking and screaming into the 21st century, and a fairer all round system implemented with a better range of download material. We need the equivalant of Gordon Ramsey to step into the music industries kitchen and kick some ass and the current outdated laws resigned to the history books along with the black death & ricketts. I think the poll on the front page of the forum says it all.

Edited April 2, 2009 by JimBoylan

[dj will 0]

I totally agree with McCardle. The real unfair aspect about the Pro-Dub is that DJs are only a small percentage of people. There are loads of people who illegally download from sites such as Limewire and nobody seems to be doing much about that. IMO that is much worse than copying a cd to your own computer.

[spinner 0]

If you are using MP3s that you have ripped from CD then you require the ProDub license.

There is some confusion on the subject of legally downloaded MP3s, one person from PD stated that you didn't need the license for them, another source said legal downloads are only licensed for personal use so a PD license is needed.

 

I cannot find the source of the two statements and things may have changed one way or the other.

 

 

Jim

 

The problem with that statement is that it is contradictory. Pro-Dub is a licence to copy not to play.

 

All recordings, purchased in whatever format, are for personal use.

 

A performance licence will be required to play to others and will be held by the venue or promoter.

Edited April 2, 2009 by spinner

[Dream Catchers 0]

The problem with that statement is that it is contradictory. Pro-Dub is a licence to copy not to play.

 

All recordings, purchased in whatever format, are for personal use.

 

A performance licence will be required to play to others and will be held by the venue or promoter.

I didn't mention play!

If you are using MP3s that you have ripped from CD then you require the ProDub license.

To use MP3s ripped from CD, can only be done by copying, unless I'm missing something.

 

edit. I think I see what you meen, you need the license if you copy, not use, although to use the MP3 in question you need to have copied it. Clear as mud LOL

 

Jim

Edited April 2, 2009 by JimBoylan

[spinner 0]

I didn't mention play!

 

Jim

 

I didn't say you did.

 

I was referring to the statement which wasn't yours.

 

[Kingy 0]

Some people are pro Pro-Dub License, as they say that it removes the Dodgy Decks Dave's of our world

 

I nearly fell for this comment.....LOL!!

 

Fool's day was yesterday wasn't it...???

[Dukesy 0]

Like I said in my earlier post - "Although all information regarding the licence is available on their web site, it most certainly is a little confusing. Some DJs have said that the 'answers' to direct questions from the source (licence provider) are not clear at all..."

 

'DJs' needn't throw the dummy or be bitchy in replies to one another - nobody wins an argument over the internet - forums are not the internet police and DJU is not a tiered service of ProDub, so if anyone wants the correct info straight from the horses mouth - contact ProDub via 020 8378 7418 or (0)20 8378 7358.

:amen:

 

[McCardle 1]

Some people are pro Pro-Dub License, as they say that it removes the Dodgy Decks Dave's of our world

 

 

I nearly fell for this comment.....LOL!!

 

Oldest marketing trick in the book. Find a common ground which strikes a chord with whom its essentially going to penalise, dress it up in clothes which don't really belong to it and it'll hopefully be more widely accepted, hence an easier pill to swallow.

[MintyDave 0]

It clearly states in 'I tunes' 'napster' and 'beatpool' etc that public performance is strictly prohibited.........as it says on the back of cd's

 

You can guarantee what ever we do somehow we are breaking the law.

 

However i sleep at night and to be honest am sick to death of this country and the stupid way it is managed.

 

Ok............i got out of bed on the wrong side this morning

 

Im doing a cash job tonight out of protest. Sorry Mr Tax Man.

[Dukesy 0]

Well, to be fair, the Tax man has nothing to do with the produb licence.

Faced with the choice of deliberately breaking the law or abiding by it, I choose not to upset the tax man, and not to invite scrutiny on a social network site by announcing what or who I'm going to evade!

 

This is even more so, when its a site which has my name against it, and that I own. I realise that a lot of comments are made tongue in cheek, however I really don't want the risk of such comments being misconstrued or being taken seriously by entities with no sense of humour and then as the forum owner, being personally approached for more information as to the author by whatever authority wishes to persue it, because I have better things to do with my time than have it encroached by the actions of others.

 

I really don't care whether such public procrastinations are in the form of "I'm evading tax", "I'm cheating on benefits", "I use illegal music" or "I shoplift from Tescos", or 100 other examples there should be an element of common sense applied to what is announced in public on an internet forum, even as a joke and whether or not the author is actually engaged in such activities or just plain bored is immaterial and irrelevant, its the fact that its being broadcast that is the problem. Then people wonder why the public perception of our industry is that of an 'afterthought' and demand for bands and live music seems to be on the increase.

 

Those who choose to make statements on network sites who then end up with the sack, or jail terms for posting videos of breaking the law, when action is taken, you can be sure that it is a direct result of their behaviour, and the choices that they made publicly, and so in the event of any resulting action they have nobody else to blame but themselves!

 

No one has the right to shout "fire" in a crowded cinema - or joke about carrying a bomb at the airport check- in, there is a far greater power than "freedom of speech" and that is "Freedom to think", and if people excercised the latter a little more often then I agree 100%, this country wouldn't be in the mess that its in.