Sometimes Pli & Pat Are Important

[spinner 0]

I've often read posts on forums about venues not asking for proof of PAT or PLI.

 

At 10:40 last night my son interrupted my viewing of Question Time with a call on his mobile from one of his friends who gets married in just over a week.

 

Another DJ had been booked and the hotel had asked for proof of his PAT and PLI.

 

The DJ had neither so had to let them down, 8 days before the wedding.

 

I was planning to do something next weekend. Now I'm doing the wedding instead.

 

The DJ in question is booked regularly at a local WMC and a local pub. Obviously neither venue is bothered about PAT or PLI (nor likely to pay much).

 

Most decent venues in this area ask for PLI and PAT so the likelihood is that the DJ who let them down doesn't get booked for weddings in them!

Edited September 24, 2010 by spinner

[Robster 0]

I've often read posts on forums about venues not asking for proof of PAT or PLI.

 

At 10:40 last night my son interrupted my viewing of Question Time with a call on his mobile from one of his friends who gets married in just over a week.

 

Another DJ had been booked and the hotel had asked for proof of his PAT and PLI.

 

The DJ had neither so had to let them down, 8 days before the wedding.

 

I was planning to do something next weekend. Now I'm doing the wedding instead.

 

The DJ in question is booked regularly at a local WMC and a local pub. Obviously neither venue is bothered about PAT or PLI (nor likely to pay much).

 

Most decent venues in this area ask for PLI and PAT so the likelihood is that the DJ who let them down doesn't get booked for weddings in them!

 

very fair point but in less than 8 hours rather than 8 days you can get PLI and PAT , the guy could have got the stuff the next day..glad you got the gig though

 

[gadget 0]

very fair point but in less than 8 hours rather than 8 days you can get PLI and PAT , the guy could have got the stuff the next day..glad you got the gig though

 

PLI - yes. PAT - most likely at a premium... Usually need to book PAT in at least a couple of days ahead though. Still even with 8 days to go - could have probably got PAT sorted out by the middle of next week... so still days to go before then.

 

Either that or the DJ didn't want to fork out for PLI & PAT costs.

 

I wonder how much the previous DJ was charging for his services..

 

Cheers,

 

David

[spinner 0]

very fair point but in less than 8 hours rather than 8 days you can get PLI and PAT , the guy could have got the stuff the next day..glad you got the gig though

 

 

But he would need to be clued up enough to get it. I don't think he is.

 

PLI - yes. PAT - most likely at a premium... Usually need to book PAT in at least a couple of days ahead though. Still even with 8 days to go - could have probably got PAT sorted out by the middle of next week... so still days to go before then.

 

Either that or the DJ didn't want to fork out for PLI & PAT costs.

 

I wonder how much the previous DJ was charging for his services..

 

Cheers,

 

David

 

 

£10M PLI can be had for around £30. PAT testing could be more expensive, depending on how much equipment. It costs me around £150 usually. I don't know but I guess the other DJ was at least 40% cheaper than me.

[gadget 0]

But he would need to be clued up enough to get it. I don't think he is.

£10M PLI can be had for around £30. PAT testing could be more expensive, depending on how much equipment. It costs me around £150 usually. I don't know but I guess the other DJ was at least 40% cheaper than me.

 

Getting my PAT testing done tomorrow morning (easier to get it all done in one go rather than bits now and the rest done in a months time). I've got less than half the kit you probably have.. Having said that, somehow I seem to have loads of IEC and extension leads, and might as well get the long extension leads at home done while I'm at it.. I can see these adding up to a bit on their own..!

 

Cheers,

 

David

[Dukesy 0]

I'm still surprised by the number of DJ's still not covering themselves with pli, especially as its now easily available to all at less than the cost of a decent meal out.

 

Although it will never change a DJ's professionalism behind the desks and has nothing to do with their skills, on a nuts and bolts level it only takes refusal of one single gig at one venue to pay for the entire annual policy, even DJ's charging £60 or £70 a gig will still essentially double their money by obtaining pli for £30 and still retain the booking, not to mention their reputation, and you can't put a price on that, the loss of reputation is always the most expensive side of the equation IMO.

 

I suspect that it was the PAT aspect which was a little more difficult and posed more of a problem with virtually no easy quick fix.

 

PAT testing could be more expensive, depending on how much equipment. It costs me around £150 usually

 

Wouldn't it pay you back very quickly to attend a training course for 1/2 - 1 day, and buy a 2nd hand (or even new) PAT tester and take care of your own requirements?.

 

Attended PAT courses vary from £100 - £200 depending on the course and location, PAT testers can be bought for £199, or less than £60 second hand. Seems you'd recoup the original investment within the first couple of years, beyond that its a bonus and a clear money saving excercise.

 

Its amazing that for £49.00 you can even do a distance learning style NAPIT accredited PAT course with an online exam and get PAT qualified online!, :shrug: :shocking: :bloodyhell:

 

http://www.pat-testing-course.com

 

 

[gadget 0]

Wouldn't you also have to get the PAT tester calibrated yearly on top of any other costs? Also, PAT testing is rather dull and boring... plus sorting out your own certs and stuff - easier to pay someone else to do it and do all the hard work etc.. ?

 

Cheers,

 

David

[spinner 0]

 

Wouldn't it pay you back very quickly to attend a training course for 1/2 - 1 day, and buy a 2nd hand (or even new) PAT tester and take care of your own requirements?.

 

http://www.pat-testing-course.com

 

You must be telepathic. That's just what I was thinking!

[Norfolk DJ 0]

 

A few weeks back I received a call on 6.30pm on a saturday evening to say that that the disco (who is also a childrens entertainer) had been refused entry at a hotel becuase if he had no PLI.

 

Nothing does surprise me with cowboys.

[spinner 0]

 

 

Its amazing that for £49.00 you can even do a distance learning style NAPIT accredited PAT course with an online exam and get PAT qualified online!, :shrug: :shocking: :bloodyhell:

 

http://www.pat-testing-course.com

 

 

Having watched the owner of my local electrical retail/repair shop PAT test my equipment there doesn't seem much to it apart from (with the correct equipment) attaching probes, pressing a couple of buttons and putting right anything that doesn't pass first time - loose wires, poor earth etc. then ataching stickers.

 

Is there an official PAT testing qualification? I don't believe I've heard of one.

[Norfolk DJ 0]

Having watched the owner of my local electrical retail/repair shop PAT test my equipment there doesn't seem much to it apart from (with the correct equipment) attaching probes, pressing a couple of buttons and putting right anything that doesn't pass first time - loose wires, poor earth etc. then ataching stickers.

 

Is there an official PAT testing qualification? I don't believe I've heard of one.

 

PAT testing is straight forward. A mate does mine in about 1 hour. The machine is easy is use, and anything which fails is usally simple to fix.

 

PAT testing is a hallmark that you are professional and take safety seriously. Anyone without PLI or PAT should not be running a disco.

[Dukesy 0]

Is there an official PAT testing qualification? I don't believe I've heard of one.

 

 

 

The Electricity at Work regulations state

 

Those carrying out PAT inspection and testing must be competent to undertake the inspection and, where appropriate, testing of electrical equipment and appliances having due regard of their own safety and that of others. What should be considered is that the 'danger' to be prevented, includes not just the dangers which may arise during the testing procedure to the tester and others, but also the dangers which may arise at a later date as a result of using equipment which has not been effectively tested.

 

The tester must have an understanding of the modes of electrical, mechanical or thermal damage to electrical equipment and appliances and their flexes which may be encountered in any environment.

 

Training must include the identification of equipment and appliance types to determine the test procedures and frequency of inspection and testing. Persons testing must be familiar with the test instruments used and in particular their limitations and restrictions so as to achieve repeatable results without damaging the equipment or the appliance

 

I would imagine that completing a course, whether online or by physical attendance would go a long way to showing diligence on your part in knowing and following the above, if the need ever arose, rather than just buying a tester and getting on with it.

 

PAT testing is a hallmark that you are professional and take safety seriously. Anyone without PLI or PAT should not be running a disco.

 

Thats just one of several other important criteria but along with pli it does seem to get overly hyped on DJ Forums. Yet in contrast, driving without correct vehicle insurance cover is not only bad business practice but also fraud which could led to a criminal offense, yet rarely gets a mention on DJ Forums and very little interest when it does and anybody without proper insurance cover doesn't take the law seriously and so should not be running a CAR!.

 

The sooner their vehicles get crushed and licenses revoked the better. Not only for other DJ's but also the safety of other road users. If you think that getting motor insurance cover for a DJ is expensive, try getting a quote for somebody blacklisted on the Insurance database as being having a previous policy revoked or convicted of insurance fraud!.

 

Out of the list of business 'must do's. IMO having / not having PAT testing certs is an important and valid point, but remains at the lower end of the scale as far as penalties and public awareness go, and there are far more anti-social activities which some DJ's engage in which would bring the scorn of the public and so need addressing with just as equal vigor.

 

Also, PAT testing is rather dull and boring

 

Along with keeping accounts, paperwork, issuing contracts, marketing, getting a web presence, buying pli, selling their business to the marketplace and other boring aspects of the business end of the deal or perhaps the success of their business model simply doesn't finance these rudimentary requirements!. I agree with the point you make about other 'boring' aspects, as some DJ's simply don't bother with any / all of the above as it doesn't hold a candle to the excitement and adrenaline rush of working a gig. In addition, the attraction of buying more pretty lights will also usually win against reinvesting the cash into running their business or insuring themselves and their vehicles correctly. But ultimately, through neglecting them, the only loser in the equation will be THEM.

[spinner 0]

The Electricity at Work regulations state

 

Those carrying out PAT inspection and testing must be competent to undertake the inspection and, where appropriate, testing of electrical equipment and appliances having due regard of their own safety and that of others. What should be considered is that the 'danger' to be prevented, includes not just the dangers which may arise during the testing procedure to the tester and others, but also the dangers which may arise at a later date as a result of using equipment which has not been effectively tested.

 

The tester must have an understanding of the modes of electrical, mechanical or thermal damage to electrical equipment and appliances and their flexes which may be encountered in any environment.

 

Training must include the identification of equipment and appliance types to determine the test procedures and frequency of inspection and testing. Persons testing must be familiar with the test instruments used and in particular their limitations and restrictions so as to achieve repeatable results without damaging the equipment or the appliance

 

 

Familiarity with test instruments can be gained by practice and digestion of the user manuals. Understanding of the modes of potential electrical damge can be gained by research.

 

Most of the criteria require intelligence and common sense and a lot of electrical knowledge can be acquired through experience. On more than one occasion I have asked my local electrical shop to do domestic wiring jobs and been told I could do them myself. The likelihood is that I could be a competent PAT tester with the knowledge and experience I have. But how is competence proved?

 

 

[Dukesy 0]

But how is competence proved?

 

By way of the certificate provided after attending a course would go some way to doing just that. In the event of the question ever being raised officially, it wouldn't be other Dj's on a DJ forum who you would have to convince, it would be a loss adjuster and possibly the pli insurance company covering the holder of the policy or representing the claim of a venue / third party.

 

If I was PAT testing my own gear, and was asked to produce my PAT certificates and records for the appliance(s) under any investigation by my pli insurer, then if it was also my name on those PAT certificates and I was the 'competant' person responsible for testing the appliances originally, then the buck stops with me and I don't have the luxury of passing any liability onto a third party. Should this occur, then I would feel better knowing I had attended a course and had a certificate / receipt to go some way to independantly prove I had been trained and then assessed by an independant third party and was certified with having the knowledge to use / read the equipment, rather than just being reliant on any experience I may have had from the past, being given verbally, unless that experience also carried formal training or certification. But thats just me and my opinion.

 

At the end of the day, the depth of the scrutiny and interest would be linear to the seriousness of the matter which was being investigated. If it was a serious or expensive matter, then i'd be glad for anything to independantly explain why I felt competant / confident enough to do something, and that I had even attended a course, at my own expense, in order to verify that belief.

 

For the relatively small outlay of a course, is it worth the gamble either way?.

 

On more than one occasion I have asked my local electrical shop to do domestic wiring jobs and been told I could do them myself

 

Oh well, thats okay then. In the event of anything nasty happening, you just drag the 'advisor' along with you to whoever is questioning you, and say 'he told me I could do it' . I wonder if you went back and asked the same person to sign their name on a minor or major works certificate for any notifiable work that you had just done or to 'part p' the paperwork for you, whether they would (a) be qualified to actually do so and (b) Whether they would sign their own name against it with the same surity and conviction that they had shown when they verbally advised you to go and get on with it . Whats to say the person in the Electrical Shop is even qualified enough to make that judgement?. Maplin sell disco equipment, but it doesn't mean that the 17 year old serving me behind the counter is an experienced DJ.

 

B&Q still sells goods to the general public some of which often require Part P certification in order to install. My local Electrical Factors would also sell me a consumer unit without question, regardless of whether it was being used in an application which required a major works certificate after installation. I wouldn't take anything that these entities told (or didn't tell me) as being the last word on the matter, or absolving me of any further obligation(s) as the party who actually carried out the work.

 

But back to your previous question.

 

Is there an official PAT testing qualification? I don't believe I've heard of one

 

There is a City & Guilds 2377 - Inspection and Testing of Electrical Equipment, qualification which is available

 

PAT testing, at the end of the day is about as pointless and benign as the MOT. Yes, it may highlight at the time of the test, a potentially fatal fault, or a disconnected or unsatisfactory earth point, but an appliance that passed an inspection today, may get its flex trapped in the van door tomorrow, and become dangerous to use and it might be 351 days before it gets noticed, on its next PAT test.

 

There is no substitute for common sense and basic regular attention to looking after and maintaining your gear. At the end of the day there is a risk that people just become far too complacent with these bits of paper, and think that an MOT will mean that their car is automatically 100% safe for the next 12 months (so they can neglect it) and a PAT test means their appliance would become faulty until its next PAT test (so they can neglect them), and that by buying pli and pat makes them the best DJ on the planet.

[spinner 0]

Oh well, thats okay then. In the event of anything nasty happening, you just drag the 'advisor' along with you to whoever is questioning you, and say 'he told me I could do it' . I wonder if you went back and asked the same person to sign their name on a minor or major works certificate for any notifiable work that you had just done or to 'part p' the paperwork for you, whether they would (a) be qualified to actually do so and (b) Whether they would sign their own name against it with the same surity and conviction that they had shown when they verbally advised you to go and get on with it . Whats to say the person in the Electrical Shop is even qualified enough to make that judgement?.

 

 

Since the person advising me was well aware of my knowledge and capabilities and I did all the jobs successfully, I guess his judgement was sound enough.

 

As I understand it a homeowner is allowed to replace single sockets with doubles or replace the cable on a light fitting but I'll be interested to hear if that is now illegal.

[Norfolk DJ 0]

 

If a dj stood and watched his items being PAT tested and was told how to use the testing equipment properly and what to do if certain problems occured, then this is good training, so I agree with Steve on this one.

 

 

[gadget 0]

 

As I understand it a homeowner is allowed to replace single sockets with doubles or replace the cable on a light fitting but I'll be interested to hear if that is now illegal.

 

I thought you could also fit spurs as well?

 

TBH if you did do Spurs, you could just say that they were installed before X.

 

I don't have any formal electrical certification, but I do know how to do a good job of electrical wiring. Its mostly common sense and using the right tools for the job (and the right cable too!)

 

Was speaking with Jane who did my PAT testing yesterday about the various tests that are preformed, and the regulations around it, in order to satisfy their own Public Liabilty Insurance and these regulations.. Also PAT testers seem to becoming more portable and less likely to blow stuff up (no Flash test anymore). Now they're battery powered, and no Load Test either (which would never work on an IEC lead anyway. Also the tests seem quicker too..

 

I had 50 items tested in about 1h30... and it cost me 56 quid inc VAT. (I'm sure almost half of these items were IEC leads alone ).

 

Cheers,

 

David

Edited September 26, 2010 by gadget

[Dukesy 0]

As I understand it a homeowner is allowed to replace single sockets with doubles or replace the cable on a light fitting but I'll be interested to hear if that is now illegal.

 

You can still do domestic work in most rooms of your own home, such as modify and spur off from existing circuits in non hazardous zones. Hazardous zones, are covered by the new Part 'P' regulations, and these include any electrical work in Bathrooms, Kitchens and fitting a shower / spa etc or external wiring, such as fitting an outside light, a fixed outside socket, or running wiring to a detached shed, conservatory, summerhouse or garage. This obviously excludes SELV fixtures and the low voltage side of wiring to LED lights and pond pumps and such where the transformer is kept in a building, and it excludes non fixed, temporary installations on a plug and socket (extension lead for example).

 

If anything, Part 'P' has made DIY installations more dangerous. Previously, a competant householder could dig a trench and cement in his own SWA to a garage or shed consumer unit himself, but now he has to rely on trailing extension leads, bringing trip hazards and overload / fire risks because he doesn't want to take out a second mortgage to get an electrician to do it, so he cuts corners but still remains on the right side of the law.

 

Just another indication of how the aging, cretinous half wits running the country are so far removed from everyday life and reality that they may as well rule from Mars.

 

There is nothing to stop you still doing the actual notifiable work, but you would still need to find somebody with 'part 'p' to inspect it and sign it off, and not surprisingly with some Electricians that can cost more than actually getting them to do the entire job in the first place.

 

New light fittings should be the new type that will only accept low energy lamps, as opposed to the standard fitment BC or ES cap pendants. This is only law for new builds at the moment, and is an advisory for DIY'ers fitting new lighting on existing circuits, although its only a matter of time before the old BC / ES fittings are phased out - the banning of 100W bulbs was only the start of what is set to come.

 

If the EURO nannies get their way, very soon you won't be able to change a tap washer without a C&G

 

TBH if you did do Spurs, you could just say that they were installed before X.

 

Yes you could, provided it was done in the 'old' colours. They changed the L & N core colours of T&E from Red and Black to Brown and Blue just before 'Part P' was rolled out, this way they could tell and 'date' a circuit to immediately tell if it was installed before or after Part 'P' was introduced. All T&E bought from wholesalers after Part 'P was introduced will be in the 'new' colours.

[gadget 0]

 

Yes you could, provided it was done in the 'old' colours. They changed the L & N core colours of T&E from Red and Black to Brown and Blue just before 'Part P' was rolled out, this way they could tell and 'date' a circuit to immediately tell if it was installed before or after Part 'P' was introduced. All T&E bought from wholesalers after Part 'P was introduced will be in the 'new' colours.

 

 

Oh and if you use blue and brown as well as existing red & black, then you need a giant sticker on the consumer unit to say that mixed colours are in use :wall:

 

Another reason to hang on to the old colours... ?

 

Hmmn, so if I want to fit another outside light I need to get someone to sign it off now? ffs. Wish I'd installed that now.. (150w flood fitting that would go on the side of the house)..

 

Agreed it makes it more dangerous about trailing cables etc. After seeing and hearing enough about cowboy builders,electricians and the like, I like to know that I did a good job of the wiring and that I can live in the knowledge that I know it was wired correctly, and the socket is in the right place, etc..

 

David

[spinner 0]

very fair point but in less than 8 hours rather than 8 days you can get PLI and PAT , the guy could have got the stuff the next day..glad you got the gig though

 

 

I've since found out that the bride knows a PAT tester and offered to arrange to get the DJ's gear tested. He refused. She concluded that he was worried it wouldn't pass!

 

He was also asked to set up in the morning. He said he couldn't do that and would arrive at 6 for a 7pm start.

 

This guy was a friend of the family (I use the past tense advisedly) and agreed to do this over a year ago.

 

There was no contract.

[Dukesy 0]

I've since found out that the bride knows a PAT tester and offered to arrange to get the DJ's gear tested. He refused. She concluded that he was worried it wouldn't pass!

 

Sounds to me that he doesn't know a bargain when he see's one. Here he had an opportunity to not only earn his fee for the booking but also get his equipment PAT tested for free.....a service worth £150+ in some cases

 

Of course, you may not be getting all of the story, do we know if the offer from the PAT tester was a free offer for the benefit of the bride, or was it a paid per appliance test fee for the benefit of the PAT tester.

 

This guy was a friend of the family (I use the past tense advisedly) and agreed to do this over a year ago

 

So the booking was made 'over a year ago' yet the PAT requirement was only made clear and mentioned by the venue a week before the event?.

 

Why did the venue leave it so long to make these requirements known to the Bride and Groom?, thats hardly professional etiquette in itself telling a client that they need to do something a week before their Wedding when they are probably rushed off their feet with last minute arrangements was it just as tardy in making its deposit requirements known...probably not :ads:

 

Did the Client sign a contract with the venue?, was its PAT requirements stated clearly and concisely in that contract?, was the PAT requirement of outside contractors made clear and explained to the Bride and Groom at the time they enquired about / booked the venue by the person responsible for dealing with their Reception?. If not WHY NOT? are the Bride asking these questions of the venue in relation to these late events also?, if this is how it reads then it seems like somebody within that venue clearly not doing their job properly IMO.

 

If the PAT requirements are not mentioned in the original Venue's contract, then I would think that it would be on a sticky wicket trying to enforce it, 'at a later date'.

 

Whilst I don't condone the DJ for taking the risk of this happening at some point in his career, I also don't condone the venues' actions in requesting this type of make-break requirement at such a late stage either. Surely its simple courtesy to sort this out early in the booking stage so that the client and their choice of DJ can send in copies of the relevant paperwork, or in the case of the DJ not having the documentation, the client has sufficent time to find a replacement, rather than causing them undue stress and worry at the eleventh hour.

 

Seems to be shortcomings from both sides of the fence, if the story is taken at face value.

[spinner 0]

Sounds to me that he doesn't know a bargain when he see's one. Here he had an opportunity to not only earn his fee for the booking but also get his equipment PAT tested for free.....a service worth £150+ in some cases

 

Of course, you may not be getting all of the story, do we know if the offer from the PAT tester was a free offer for the benefit of the bride, or was it a paid per appliance test fee for the benefit of the PAT tester.

So the booking was made 'over a year ago' yet the PAT requirement was only made clear and mentioned by the venue a week before the event?.

 

Why did the venue leave it so long to make these requirements known to the Bride and Groom?, thats hardly professional etiquette in itself telling a client that they need to do something a week before their Wedding when they are probably rushed off their feet with last minute arrangements was it just as tardy in making its deposit requirements known...probably not :ads:

 

Did the Client sign a contract with the venue?, was its PAT requirements stated clearly and concisely in that contract?, was the PAT requirement of outside contractors made clear and explained to the Bride and Groom at the time they enquired about / booked the venue by the person responsible for dealing with their Reception?. If not WHY NOT? are the Bride asking these questions of the venue in relation to these late events also?, if this is how it reads then it seems like somebody within that venue clearly not doing their job properly IMO.

 

If the PAT requirements are not mentioned in the original Venue's contract, then I would think that it would be on a sticky wicket trying to enforce it, 'at a later date'.

 

Whilst I don't condone the DJ for taking the risk of this happening at some point in his career, I also don't condone the venues' actions in requesting this type of make-break requirement at such a late stage either. Surely its simple courtesy to sort this out early in the booking stage so that the client and their choice of DJ can send in copies of the relevant paperwork, or in the case of the DJ not having the documentation, the client has sufficent time to find a replacement, rather than causing them undue stress and worry at the eleventh hour.

 

Seems to be shortcomings from both sides of the fence, if the story is taken at face value.

 

 

 

Face value?

 

The DJ wasn't booked by the B&G but 'over a year ago' by the father of one of them. I am not aware of when the hotel was booked.

 

Because the DJ is a friend of the family (and usually works in relatively low paying venues) there is a possibility that he wasn't charging that much, which may have put him off PAT testing if he had to pay for it. Whether he was offered it for free or would have had to pay for it is hardly the point. A professional DJ should be aware that some venues will insist upon it. Remember, he wasn't willing to set up early either.

 

Maybe the hotel were tardy in asking for the documentation, but if the DJ had had it in place there would have been no problem. Certainly they should have made the clients aware of their requirements earlier but, as far as I am aware, any venue has the right to refuse entry to any outside contractor.

[gadget 0]

You could also turn this into a "good" outcome - in that the PAT & PLI requirements came 8 days before, rather than "on the night", where the DJ would have been refused setup and the night totally ruined...

 

David

 

[edited: added in PLI to the line]

Edited September 27, 2010 by gadget

[Dukesy 0]

Maybe the hotel were tardy in asking for the documentation, but if the DJ had had it in place there would have been no problem.

 

I agree. However not all official documentation is easy to lay your hands on. Point of fact it took me ages to find my Driving License once, and it took me even longer to find my motor insurance certificate. I knew I was insured and the online MID confirmed it, however when you don't need to produce something on a weekly basis and rarely need to produce something (like venue requests for pli / pat), its easy to misplace them and Dj's are also human and move house, have floods, fires, life challenges or divorces and things do go astray and copies may need to be sought and requested. Being a DJ doesn't make you Peter Perfect and I'm the first to admit occasionally being absent minded and misplacing things.

 

A week is not the longest notice period either, try getting copies of other 'official' documentation like passports and driving licenses, bank statements etc in the same timescale, sure you can do it - sometimes, but often at a price and major inconvenience and nail biting.

 

Just because a random DJ may not be able to lay his hands on PAT certs in the (very) short term doesn't automatically mean that he doesn't hold them, yet at this venue could have so easily have refused another DJ - any DJ on the basis of something which had been needlessly complicated by the venues short notice period, directly creating a situation between the client and DJ which wouldn't have occured with the courtesy of more adequate notice. It may be that a DJ has misplaced them and has to go back to the self employed Electrician who did it for him in order to obtain copies, and he might be on holiday in Greece for 2 weeks, what then?.

 

I also once experienced a sudden and unexpected vehicle problem on the afternoon of a gig, which meant a last minute hire, and in the rush to get everything sorted in order to go and do my job, damn!, if I didn't go and leave my pli and pat certs at home in the file I routinely keep in the glovebox of the (broken down) vehicle. Had I have been asked for them that night then I could have been in trouble. I blame the fact that I forget to wear my underpants on the outside of my trousers that day, so fate came along and gave me another challenge .

 

Again, i'm not excusing or condoning this DJ for not having PLI / PAT it in the first place, but the Venue is also partly to blame for excessively worrying and burdening the client by leaving it to the eleventh hour to mention it also. This is after all, not a minor change or request, but documentation in relation to important HSE requirements of which a failure to comply may result in ruination of the clients Evening reception or require them to make alternative arrangements. Since the Venue itself has no actual contract with the DJ, its also vital that any such 3rd party requirements are clearly explained to the client at the earliest opportunity, so they can reasonably act as an intermediary and also have the timescale to do so.

 

but, as far as I am aware, any venue has the right to refuse entry to any outside contractor.

 

Yes it has, but hopefully there will also be some common sense applied, as they could easily become answerable to or have to stand by those decisions where that decision may directly also impact on others or result in a breach of contract occuring elsewhere down the line where other parties are concerned, and I would suspect that if these PAT / PLI terms were not clearly mentioned and stipulated in the original contract between and the venue and the client, then any decent solicitor would be able to blow huge holes in it, should the venue refuse entry to a clients own DJ on the Evening without good reason, and for something which hadn't been previously mentioned or didn't form part of the original contracted terms of hire of the venue when it was signed and would cast doubt on whether it could (should) have been enforced.

 

Venues can't just change or draft new, and important requirements into contracts as and when it likes, after they've been signed, any more than we can.

 

Face value?

 

As I said before, you are getting all of this second hand from a client. Its a known fact that in a verbal chain of communication the version given to the final person in the chain may not contain the full, original facts...therefore its possible that the client may not be giving away the full story' .

 

'Send three or four pence we are going to a dance'

 

Lots of variables, complicated even more by the fact that the original DJ is / was a 'family friend' of the client.

[spinner 0]

I agree. However not all official documentation is easy to lay your hands on.

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There should be no problem if one is properly organised.

 

 

As I said before, you are getting all of this second hand from a client. Its a known fact that in a verbal chain of communication the version given to the final person in the chain may not contain the full, original facts...therefore its possible that the client may not be giving away the full story' .

 

That might be the case if the clients were complete strangers. However, they are friends of my son and were at school with him. I have known them for 14 years and believe I have the full story.