Competition From Media Centers

[vokf 0]

With talk of these "Media Centers" from;

MediaTheme:

http://www.mediatheme.com/the-entertainer/...tainer-jukebox/

 

and

Touch Master

http://www.touch-master.co.uk/

 

I'm interested in how many of us really see them hitting our business.

 

From my end, 1 bar in Cheshunt installed a similar system for the Bar Staff to use. Whenever I went into the bar on a Saturday (prime night) it was fairly empty, about 10 people in a large bar that could accommodate around 200.

When they had a live DJ, it was busy - basically packed with a queue to get in.

 

My local has a jukebox,but also has entertainment most Fridays and Saturdays, including Karaoke and the odd Disco. As a business savvy Scotsman, the landlord is not considering one of these systems to provide Karaoke.

 

 

As always, polls are anonymous (yes, really!), but I'd be interested in your personal experiences, either as a DJ, or as a punter in a bar where these are installed.

 

Jason

[Robster 0]

I personally feel that as a pub dj/karaoke host if you see these devices as a real serious threat then you should take a look at your performance and act.

 

I am not ashamed or hide the fact that I feel I have a personality , that is NOT the same as being a cheesy, talking all the time , cracking unfunny jokes all the time ..stereotype personality DJ though!

 

Some PUB venues do have dj's who just automix and say nothing apart from where is my money and I feel those are the people who may feel threatened by such devices.

 

Me I like to feel there is more to my nights than cueing up the next song or singer. Many have tried to do better at my venues for less but i am still standing and still working 3 to 4 nights a week ..bring on the machines !

[Dukesy 0]

To try and look at these things without any bias and as a tool rather than a threat, I can see that they weren't the brainchild of somebody who was completely anti-Dj and thought it up out of spite as a means to put DJ's out of business, and I can also see many other benefits that this system brings, which we can't possibly provide, any one of which may stand as a good reason for venues to invest in one. I doubt any venue has chosen this system purely to cut us out of the equation, they are also good marketing tools, and playing music is only 1/12th of what these systems provide, so try and look at it from all angles, not just ours.

 

Put it this way, a Mediatheme is not much more than a Jukebox to 'lease' from a company, and since this system can do so much more than play music, why wouldn't the venue pay a small amount more per month to invest in one of these, rather than a basic Jukebox in order to take advantage of the extra features and benefits, and on this basis the venue manager is simply being practical.

 

However, if you happen to read the 'Anti-DJ' sales pitch on the Mediatheme website, you may be forgiven for thinking that the whole philosophy behind the Mediatheme system is to put us out of business, but having spoken to a representative of the company personally, I can assure you that its not

 

Whether or not you personally view the Mediatheme system as a threat or not, and to keep things accurate there is no getting away from the fact that if you openly view their standing on the companies house website (which anybody can do for £1 - £3 depending on the depth of the report), then you will find that their model is indeed something of a true success and has grown significantly and consecutively on an annual basis, ever since its introduction in the early 2000's, and the core of this business is pubs, hotels, holiday parks and venues, and i'm not sure that this would be the case if they were responsible for single handidly emptying pubs, we would have put them out of business a long time ago :joe: .

 

So what may be happening locally, is probably not a true reflection of how they are performing on a national scale, and even as early as 2006 they had 600 licensed premises on their books, which is quite an enviable market share for one single entity to hold, and I suppose means 600 less gigs for the DJ's who would normally be in there, so at an average of say £120 a night, thats a potential £72000 of DJ revenue per gig lost on a national level as a result of 600 venues installing this system, and I can assure you that the number of venues who have this system installed, has grown significantly above the 600 in the five years which have followed.

 

Let's get down to the brass tacks, I know of no other DJ, Agency, or DJ Association who has got Dj's into a similar number of pubs and singlehandidly taken a similar market share and raised this kind of revenue for them, so i'm not sure of how we could say that these media systems are not a success as they do seem to be finding work in places that Dj's aren't. Does Goodparty (as an example) have well into four figures worth of venues on its books, all getting Dj's regular work?. So there has to be some appeal for the Media system.

 

The Mediatheme product was also behind a national sponsored Karaoke night, called Pub Stars which covered the UK during 2008. I recall this being quite a national success, certainly there does appear to be more than 10 people in attendance.

 

Of course by also investing in one of these systems, it removes the onus and burden of responsibility towards the venue to check that their DJ's have Pro-Dub, Pli, Pat etc and the whole other load of other things which DJ's themselves use to market their business one system - one license and its all included in the rental.

 

Some PUB venues do have dj's who just automix and say nothing apart from where is my money and I feel those are the people who may feel threatened by such devices.

 

Agree 100%. But i'm all for solidarity, as opposed to 'i'm all right at the moment jack - pull the ladder up' and therefore believe that if it affects one other colleague today then its an issue and serves as fair warning because it may get or grow to a point where it just starts affecting me tomorrow.

 

So to answer your question as Dukesy the DJ, do I feel that this concept is currently a threat to me personally - NO. Do I feel that its a threat to our industry (or may, in time become one) - YES

 

Not indulging and encouraging your competition is one thing, but ignoring them and not recognising that they exist or that they may one day become a negative factor in the industry equation is foolhardy IMO, and if anything their existance should serve as a reminder that we should be constantly raising our own bar in order to make ourselves more valuable to the customers who we serve, and not just be the human jukebox in the corner.

[Derek Paul 0]

First of all I am not familiar with these systems, but I think I have a good idea of their function.

 

I played a lot of Pub gigs thought the 80’s and 90’s, before moving to the States. Some were great, some not so. I believe not every pub has a large enough audience to support a DJ, and these machines many be the solution for them. However as a professional DJ, I believe I provide much more than just music. Here I agree with Robster, we are entertainers and organizers, we bring way more to a gig that just music. When playing, I’m watching the dance floor and respond to the crowd (I don’t think a machine could do that). With Karaoke it’s even more important to have a professional organizing the night.

 

So here are my thoughts.

 

These machines are no threat to good DJ’s. In fact they may even help by removing some of the “Bad” DJ from the market.

 

Where I do see a problem, is for New DJ’s coming in to the market. We all leaned our trade in some of the venues that will use these machines. My very first gig was at a working men’s club in Birmingham. If it still existed, I am sure they would have installed one of these machines.

 

Bottom Line – These machines have a place in the market. But if you are Professional, and remember you’re an entertainer, I don’t see any machine replacing you.

[vokf 0]

Regardless of individual thoughts, as a nationwide (and worldwide) DJ forum, more input is needed to see the CURRENT effect of these units.

 

We only have our own experiences to draw on, if I believed everything I read here- I'd be packing it in.

 

 

I'm in agreement with Robstar and Derek, DJ's that add value (as opposed to simply playing music) cannot be replaced by a box.

 

I'm sure DJ's were worried about JukeBoxes taking over their world, but I've yet to see a Jukebox advertised as Entertainment on a prime night.

If the pub see's no difference in income, then their choice of DJ's has been poor, or perhaps the pub simply doesn't want a DJ and just some background music.

 

 

Jas

[Dukesy 0]

If the pub see's no difference in income, then their choice of DJ's has been poor

 

So you see the role of a Dj, as being a vehicle purely to increase the revenue of a Pub?

 

Don't other aspects of a Pub, all play a part in its success, and its attraction rather than just its choice of DJ?. A DJ is not a magic pill, if the venue serves crap food, has a reputation for violence or trouble or just has staff which are rude to its customers, I doubt the choice of DJ will make much difference, even if (s)he booked one of the Dj's who constantly wear their underpants over their trousers. There are lots of reasons why a venue may not attract more clientele, even the ones which have entertainment and it can't all be laid at the feet of the poor old Dj - we are not the leisure industries' fall guy, even the good ones :shrug: .

 

more input is needed to see the CURRENT effect of these units.

 

This is a fast moving industry, you can't afford to stay still. There will always be something or someone looking futher into the future than you, and making future plans. You cannot predict the growth of your competition based on facts today, because tomorrow they will probably be stronger and will always be different, and their sales force may be knocking on a venue door locally. It will be interesting to see the results of the poll in 12 months time.

 

Unfortunately, like everything else, it will actually take somebody to lose a venue because of it, before 'they' become personally interested , then no doubt it will become a topic, when its actually too late to do anything about it. Thats always the way, generally.

 

At the end of the day, I have the upmost respect for any business which continues to grow during a well publicised global recession in an area which has been hit hard and has seen many venues simply close their doors for good. Any Dj's here seen a similar huge increase in all of their leisure based trade and at the same time, also increased their rates?. This what I can't understand, we have threads like this, where the DJ is considered (or refered to by mutual backslapping) as the Jewel in the Venue's crown and their human presence behind the decks increases the beer sales and bar takings, yet other threads talk about how low paid a lot of the leisure industry / venue work is and how Dj's are reluctant to ask for more money. Are we really unique in that we are actually going into a venue, doing our stuff and turning around their financial fortunes by our efforts, personality and talents, yet we are not charging Spindoctor style money in return for this service?. Why the obvious reluctance of some to increase fees if they are that valuable to the venue?. I suspect that I know why, it just would be refreshing to hear somebody else say it.

 

Ironically there exists posts on this forum, where DJ's are up in arms over other DJ's undercutting them, a few years ago, it was the introduction of Ipod Weddings which got their goat. So if Dj's are in a flap over a few other Dj's charging less than them, or a few Disco shops dry hiring gear for people to plug their Ipods into, then do they really not see the growing roll out of these machines into 1000's of pubs nationwide as even a small threat?. If everybody really believes that the role of the DJ will never be replaced, by a 'box' then why the outcry and venom spitting towards the Ipod based Wedding?, or even the Jukebox Wedding Hire companies? - both are boxes and both have come in for heavy criticism in the past, so we can't be that impervious.

[vokf 0]

So you see the role of a Dj, as being a vehicle purely to increase the revenue of a Pub?

 

Don't other aspects of a Pub, all play a part in its success, and its attraction rather than just its choice of DJ?

 

No, you're getting confused. In these lean times, a pub will put on entertainment for one reason;

Get bodies in to spend more money.

 

So, any Entertainment, should increase revenue, compared to no entertainment. If it doesn't, there is no business case for continuing, and this could mean changing supplier (ie crap DJ) or deciding its not required.

 

If the landlords choice of DJ is bad, and the night does not draw a crowd (over normal non-entertainment nights) then its not worth doing. Some pubs don't need Entertainment, or are simply not geared up for it (space/layout/enviromental sound)

 

 

A DJ is not a magic pill, if the venue serves crap food, has a reputation for violence or trouble or just has staff which are rude to its customers, I doubt the choice of DJ will make much difference, even if (s)he booked one of the Dj's who constantly wear their underpants over their trousers. There are lots of reasons why a venue may not attract more clientele

 

Of course, other aspects play into the success of a pub, but we're talking about entertainment, not food, beer prices or local "characters".

 

These are constant variables in the equation. Poor food, bad staff, violence happen every night, often regardless of entertainment.

Good quality entertainment in a "problem" pub will struggle to draw in more bodies, so the more serious issued would need addressing first. For an average pub, the revenue difference should be clearer.

 

 

Back on-topic, the comparison is the "box" vs the "DJ", and the point being made is the box cannot replace a host. I'm sure a box could be better than some DJ's, but until I see one of these things running music at peak time on a prime night to a packed bar of people, I'm not convinced.

In what way does it differ to a JukeBox? (that have been our for years, and certainly around before any of us were DJing)

 

People enjoy an entertainer, and these boxs have their uses where an entertainer may not have able to perform (due to space/layout). In some winebars I've been in, you'll never get a DJ of any kind there due to lack of space -so they have something similar.

 

As a punter to the pubs I frequent, I can't see these replacing the entertainment that is already laid on.

For mid-week (ie off peak nights), they could work well (but would probably offer little over the existing jukebox) and certainly not take bookings away from other entertainment.

 

I do know some DJ's have offered Dry-Hire services for iPOD parties (at least one DJ in this forum), but

I won't comment on the iPOD/DIY choice as its really off-topic for this discussion.

 

[Dukesy 0]

In what way does it differ to a JukeBox? that have been our for years, and certainly around before any of us were DJing

 

If you read both of the sites that you linked to, then you will know that the facilities offered by these machines far outweigh those offered by a conventional serviced Jukebox.

 

Namely, the Mediatheme offers:-

 

Jukebox / Disco / Bakground Music with 13,000 fully licensed original music tracks

 

Karaoke - Again with over 10k Popular Karaoke Tracks, provided by a well known Karaoke Disc manufacturer used by a lot of KJ's

 

Video Disco - Over 10k Popular Music tracks from different eras with their original videos

 

Racenights - pubs can run their own racenights, whenever they like

 

Pop and General Knowledge Quizzes

 

Bingo, complete with built in 'caller'

 

Arcade Games and Popular Pub Games

 

The ability to produce and show customised Video and Graphic Ad's

 

Supplies of Song Books, Request Slips etc, (personalised to your venue if you wish)

 

You can even expand it with a traditional Jukebox add-on to earn coin-op revenue from the system, so you can charge punters not only to select a music track, but also if they want to sing on the Karaoke or watch one of the music videos

 

The Entertainer™ now features a brilliant coin-operated Jukebox as part of the package. You can still entertain your customers day and night with a great selection of music, karaoke, games and quizzes, but now you can switch to Jukebox mode whenever you want, and let your customers pay for the tracks they choose! The Entertainer™ Jukebox gives your customers access to a huge range of pay to play music and music video tracks!

 

It also differs from a conventional Jukebox in that you can operate it to mix seamlessly from track to track, just like conventional DJ Software, and also swap between Music, Video and Karaoke just by pressing a touch screen and choosing a track - no carrying / installing / wiring seperate units and multiple sets of equipment. Most normal jukeboxes don't have video or Karaoke facilities either.

 

In addition, when the venue is being used for non entertainment use - ie Sunday Lunch, the system can play background music, as well as showing a range of graphic or video Ad's for local businesses, many pubs charge local taxi firms, Shops etc, to have their advert on the system, and showing around the venue on flat screen or large screen TV's - it can even be timed to show a taxi companies' details in the run up to last orders for example. The venue can also use the media side of the system to publicise their own forthcoming events, happy hours, Daily Food Specials and drink promotions - which sure beats sticking posters at eye level in the gents I guess or chalking up todays dish of the day.

 

Considering all of this comes at around £40 or £50 per month more than a traditional digital serviced music only Jukebox, and offers all of the above, financially it compares very well with the costs of a conventional Jukebox, and also the external services which it could replace. The subscription also contains update discs, which are very similar to the monthly DJ discs that some Dj's subscribe too. You also get updates for the latest music videos and Karaoke, not to mention updates for the quizzes so you always have 'fresh' content for these.

 

If you add up what a venue may spend on hiring in, not only Dj's but also the other service providers for the other options which are offered such as racenights and the hours spent by the landlord preparing pop and general knowledge quizzes, then the deal becomes attractive. £70 per month for the basic system or £140 per month with all of the trimmings and options, plus its serviced and you get tech support and engineers to come out for free if things go awry.

 

Sky actually charge similar figures to the basic system for the rights to show free music channels like MTV in a commercial venue, so by having the Video Jukebox playing continuously pretty much covers the cost in what they will save on Sky licenses for much the same thing, if you also add the coin-op facility they can also earn money from punters operating the video jukebox via the system, something which cannot be done with MTV.

 

[DJMickeyk 0]

Not seen one of these yet but think I understand what they are, and no i don't feel at all threatened by them. If my res tried using one of these on a busy night it would cost them money, I take countless requests on a busy Fri / Sat, and am on the mic constantly wishing somebody a happy birthday or whatever, doubt a machine will ever do that. These things have their place, in fact I can see my res installing one eventually, but for busy nights they will only be used in an emergency (DJ or band not showing up). And how a machine could manage a Karaoke session, I just don't see it working in a busy environment, people aren't stupid. If these machines do become as widespread as feared then the venues who stick with using real DJ's (good ones) will make a killing IMO, they'll be rammed every weekend night while the rest won't, as somebody else said the jukebox never replaced the DJ in the past, and these machines appear to be nothing more than a very clever evolution of the traditional jukebox, nothing to worry about. No matter how advanced a machine is it just can't build the same atmosphere that a decent DJ with good musical knowledge and crowd reading & interaction skills can, and it never will be able to either.

 

A far greater threat to me personally in terms of DJ'ing is the horrendous economic situation, pubs are dead and people are not spending. I haven't seen a major downturn in function bookings yet but I know several DJ's personally who have, I know this because some have contacted me looking for work I may have to pass off, as their own bookings had collapsed in a very short space of time. There has also been a huge influx of newly unemployed people take up DJ'ing for extra cash, and they will work for peanuts. Some tough times ahead, I think given the area I work in and reputation I already have and with my res which is holding up well I will be fine personally, but some others will give up I would guess as they struggle to make any money from it, rant over

[Dukesy 0]

A far greater threat to me personally in terms of DJ'ing is the horrendous economic situation, pubs are dead and people are not spending

 

Yep the industry is getting the crap kicked out of it at the moment, and whilst I accept that some areas and markets are doing okay, I also think that many others are still reluctant to shirk off bravado and admit it to the depths of the honesty which you have done, just how bad it is in some places, even though they are / maybe equally affected.

 

We can all join hands, avoid talking about the negatives and think happy-happy thoughts and sing Kumbaya... and hope that things will change (and turn a blind eye to them), but I doubt that they will, and I seriously doubt the rise in popularity of these machines will do anything to address this, or change the balance in our favour. But I can see that I'm going to have to simply agree to disagree with various people on that score.

[Robster 0]

On the review link for the porters lodge the guy saying its the best system is the owner of the bar maybe he is a little biased?

 

On the Edwards bar facebook page they still hire djs to get the customers in , in fact they advertise two different DJs so its seems its not a one or the other either mediatheme or not but adding to the facilities they offer ..this venue gets good reviews and seems to be well liked , they seem thoroughly pro active and I can see why they are busy it is a combination of activities

 

 

on pub utopia the pub with the system for 8 years gets this review source

" no atmosphere I'm sorry to say.I believe locally it is known as the "Funeral pub" because of the amount of wakes held there.Would not recommend it." I left out the harsher comments

 

There is also a "The sour grapes pub in Bilston" on facebook from unhappy ex customers which i have never seen for a pub before.

 

now not for one minute am i suggesting this is down to the choice of entertainment system but as positives were shown I wished to show links that balanced the points made.

 

I still feel these systems currently have no threat to my way of working but i will keep a close eye as the technology evolves , i like competition and challenges it makes me up my game.

from a pub manager point of view it maybe a added tool to get customers spending but used as a solitary tool without any other entertainment or other benefits I cant see it actively pulling people in in its present form.

 

many customers can not use a normal jukebox and are terrified of touch-screens future generations of course will be more likely to feel at home using such a system but I can only imagine the comedy gold mine of filming some of my customers trying to work such a system.

 

I am often amazed at how long people take at parking meters in car parks.. there is a money slot and a green button but they take ages as if they had never seen one before and that's just one button , the ones where you have to put in your reg plate there are always queues , heaven knows how long the karaoke queue would be on a busy night for those type of people having to press more than one button

 

[MintyDave 0]

My 2 encounters of such systems, or smaller versions are that they are indeed a trade killer in some situations. I had a regular karaoke gig in a local army welfare club and when they had a change of mangement i became out of favour and they bought a preloaded karaoke system. One of the bar guys was tasked with running the show as well as other disco's (they already had full install - cheap nasty gear though) and he hated it with a passion

 

it went downhill quite rapidly and a few of my old regulars stopped going. Not sure what they are doing now, should call in one day for a glass of water.

 

the second is i walked in a local one night whre they did karaoke every friday night. I couldnt get thought the door as a singer was stood in the doorway at the end of a bar with mic in hand singing a god awful karaoke track that sounds like it was sequenced on a bontempi keyboard. The mic lead was only 3m long hence he had to stand there.

 

Ok the words were projected over 3 plasmas round the pub, which was novelty but no lights, no proper soundsystem, no host, only 1 mic - pretty lifeless really. However they had a mass ammount of tracks which i cant compete with. They stopped doing it in no time at all.

 

In a nutshell yes they provide the media but how many of these venues have a thumping soundsystem, lights galore, a warm and friendly host and on demand music.

 

If these systems are a real threat to our trade then maybe we should get on the applecart - whats the price and availability. could we get one and use it for our work - the rental fee would be 100% tax deductable and we could

provide professional DJ quality music play lists with DJ Player

:Thumbup:

 

Oh yes and spot the misleading reference below

 

http://www.mediatheme.com/static/img/music-379.png

 

it obviously comes with a cdj and a nice man in a flat cap

[DJMickeyk 0]

Yep the industry is getting the crap kicked out of it at the moment, and whilst I accept that some areas and markets are doing okay, I also think that many others are still reluctant to shirk off bravado and admit it to the depths of the honesty which you have done, just how bad it is in some places, even though they are / maybe equally affected.

Well I can tell you where I live it is very very bad at the moment, I normally work friday and saturday nights so the only chance I get to go for drinks might be a sunday night, or possibly a Friday if I'm off. The difference in the past two years is simply staggering, pubs that were quite busy on a sunday night two years ago now have a handful of customers if they are lucky, fridays are ok(ish) buy way way back as well. Saturdays are busy in the late bars (my res is one of these) but the normal pubs are semi-busy, many landlords who are /were leasing their premises have walked away from their leases as they were losing money, and the scary thing is there is zero sign of improvement. Like I said above function work is holding up ok for me but others have seen their booking levels implode entirely, lucky to get 1-2 gigs a month when they were booked solid every saturday a few years back. I have a decent dayjob and a residency so I'm ok, but god help any full time DJ's trying to make a good living now out of function work. I normally get another good DJ to cover my res if i get a function on a saturday and the manager has been happy with this arrangement but I'm starting to wonder if i should just forget about function work for a while and make sure I hold on to the res, he will have DJ's knocking down his door willing to undercut me shortly, either way I can't see the above machines effecting me directly. Perhaps if my res was very quiet maybe, but we always have a good crowd at the weekend, sorry for dragging the thread off topic

[Robster 0]

, either way I can't see the above machines effecting me directly. Perhaps if my res was very quiet maybe, but we always have a good crowd at the weekend, sorry for dragging the thread off topic

 

i dont think this is too off topic as the state of the economy has a direct effect on management making cost cutting measures getting bar staff to effectively host seems on paper a great idea BUT we i think are in general agreement that over time they will lose customers and the atmosphere that a dedicated good host can provide.

 

I have seen pubs using bar staff controlling a laptop behind the bar to host nights (illegal software , illegal tracks and youtube karaoke videos steamed), when its busy ie more than two customers want a drink at a time .. at the bar no one can get to sing or put a request in , when the song ends because the staff are spinning plates so to speak there are long gaps until a random song is then played , these pubs never get truly busy and singers go elsewhere. the lap top went into a mixer amp in another room so the staff couldnt alter settings so if you were a quiet singer or a loud one tough one setting suited all so it sounded pants guess what they soon lost customers for taking the cheap skate route.

 

doing things properly especially with karaoke in my experience is important if you want people to come back , i have yet to see an automated system than can do this properly without a host who knows what they are doing.

 

[vokf 0]

i dont think this is too off topic as the state of the economy has a direct effect on management making cost cutting measures getting bar staff to effectively host seems on paper a great idea BUT we i think are in general agreement that over time they will lose customers and the atmosphere that a dedicated good host can provide.

 

I have seen pubs using bar staff controlling a laptop behind the bar to host nights (illegal software , illegal tracks and youtube karaoke videos steamed), when its busy ie more than two customers want a drink at a time .. at the bar no one can get to sing or put a request in , when the song ends because the staff are spinning plates so to speak there are long gaps until a random song is then played , these pubs never get truly busy and singers go elsewhere. the lap top went into a mixer amp in another room so the staff couldnt alter settings so if you were a quiet singer or a loud one tough one setting suited all so it sounded pants guess what they soon lost customers for taking the cheap skate route.

 

doing things properly especially with karaoke in my experience is important if you want people to come back , i have yet to see an automated system than can do this properly without a host who knows what they are doing.

 

Looking at the poll results to date- its about 50/50.

 

Those that are or have been losing work... what are your plans? It sounds like they are almost like Skynet, wiping out DJ's like a touch-screen teminator :joe:

All businesses suffer from competition in some form, and there is much more to being a DJ than simply playing tunes. We hopefully evolve with music tastes, but it appears difficult for DJ's to consider themselves businessmen and move with the times.

 

So - does anyone have suggestions to win back business from venues that are using these?

 

As I've yet to see one of these in the flesh, I really don't know exactly what they offer.

That said, I assume they won't have a lighting rig, or a human presenter?... so one option could be to take a few lights, a personality and offer "hosting" services.

Not a complete "walk-in", but no PA required.

 

Or re-focus your business for venues that value a DJ/KDJ, or simply pack it in if things are looking that grim.

 

Crying into your beer on a DJ forum won't help matters, nor pay the bills.

[MintyDave 0]

 

 

So - does anyone have suggestions to win back business from venues that are using these?

 

 

 

All i can suggest is that if you have actually lost specific work to such a device then possibly what you were doing was not good enough to warrant that extra fee

 

or if you know a venue that uses somethng like that you feel could be a possible gold mine then offer a freebie as a PR excerscise and go inall guns blazing

 

we know what these devices can do and its what they cant is the selling point