Advice For A Newbie (buying Advice)

[jamesgodfrey 0]

Hi all

 

I am part of a Michael Jackson tribute group and we do events every few months for various charities whilst we get ourselves known.

 

Comments which we have from our performances etc... say that the group are fantastic but the music lets us down... (not loud enough).

 

At present we use:

 

2 x Auna PW-2222 Passive Speakers (1000 Watts Max each)

1 x Skytec Pro-1500 Amplifier

1 x Behringer VMX300 Mixer

 

We also use an iPod to play the music from....

 

We have been advised that the equipment we use is of the lowest end in terms of brand and therefore with it saying 1000 watts etc... it probably isn't strictly true.

 

We normally perform to anything between 150 - 300 people in a medium to large hall with fairly high ceilings....

 

If you could advise on what sort of equipment we should be looking to get... that would be great.

 

Thanks

 

James

[dj_dash 0]

Hi all

 

I am part of a Michael Jackson tribute group and we do events every few months for various charities whilst we get ourselves known.

 

Comments which we have from our performances etc... say that the group are fantastic but the music lets us down... (not loud enough).

 

At present we use:

 

2 x Auna PW-2222 Passive Speakers (1000 Watts Max each)

1 x Skytec Pro-1500 Amplifier

1 x Behringer VMX300 Mixer

 

We also use an iPod to play the music from....

 

We have been advised that the equipment we use is of the lowest end in terms of brand and therefore with it saying 1000 watts etc... it probably isn't strictly true.

 

We normally perform to anything between 150 - 300 people in a medium to large hall with fairly high ceilings....

 

If you could advise on what sort of equipment we should be looking to get... that would be great.

 

Thanks

 

James

 

Hi James,

 

When you say "the music lets us down", do you mean your sound system or the actual music? I ask because there's only so much that getting better speakers will do to improve the music :tongueout:

 

 

Still, sorry to say that you've fallen for the 'power' trick - 1000 watts virtually means nothing. I run just two straight forward 400w active speakers from RCF - which aren't just a couple of hundred pounds... but because they are built with very high quality components, and ultimately can achieve high sound pressure levels (SPLs), they do a good job.

 

Speakers are meant to reproduce the signal their being fed... and typically more expensive speakers are the ones that can make a more accurate reproduction, because they've been fine tuned and perfected to make that sound. Companies like Auna and Behringer make their products cheap because they don't really care about the "fine tuning" - and for those who don't really care about the quality of the sound, and just want it to be loud, that's fine.

 

Understandably it's all down to budget, especially in the current financial climate, but the more you're willing to invest on a decent sound system, the better the overall sound will be :)

 

Hope that helps,

 

D.

[jamesgodfrey 0]

Hi James,

 

When you say "the music lets us down", do you mean your sound system or the actual music? I ask because there's only so much that getting better speakers will do to improve the music :tongueout:

Still, sorry to say that you've fallen for the 'power' trick - 1000 watts virtually means nothing. I run just two straight forward 400w active speakers from RCF - which aren't just a couple of hundred pounds... but because they are built with very high quality components, and ultimately can achieve high sound pressure levels (SPLs), they do a good job.

 

Speakers are meant to reproduce the signal their being fed... and typically more expensive speakers are the ones that can make a more accurate reproduction, because they've been fine tuned and perfected to make that sound. Companies like Auna and Behringer make their products cheap because they don't really care about the "fine tuning" - and for those who don't really care about the quality of the sound, and just want it to be loud, that's fine.

 

Understandably it's all down to budget, especially in the current financial climate, but the more you're willing to invest on a decent sound system, the better the overall sound will be :)

 

Hope that helps,

 

D.

 

Thanks for the advice, the system is loud and the music is clear, its just it isn't loud enough for events that we do, we are looking to upgrade our system in the future but there are a lot of options and we don't know what is best to go for...

 

Active/Passive System?

How many watts RMS?

 

etc... I was told it is always to better to get second hand top quality gear than buy brand new 'poo' gear lol.

 

What sort of makes should I be looking for... and which should i avoid and which are like the average priced items....

 

Also if you could recommend some websites for this type of equipment that would be great.

 

Thanks

 

P.S. Also, I have a wireless mic, and for some reason when it is put through the PA there always seems to be like a radio frequency sound coming out the speakers... what could resolve this?

 

[McCardle 1]

Your Skytec amplifier professes to be 2x 750W RMS per channel into 4 ohms. Currently you are only running one 8 ohm speaker off each channel, so that 4 ohm wattage figure will be reduced exponentially. However even at 8 ohms, I would expect at least 500W RMS per channel.

 

Lots of people mis-understand how the human ear converts sound energy, but 'DJ DASH' is pretty much spot on with their description, in that there is sound and SOUND

 

A lot of DJ's seem to think that throwing more and more watts into the equation is the be all - end all solution to their sound issues, and think that 800 watts will sound twice as loud as 400 watts, but in practice, it doesn't work like that, because a large percentage of that extra wattage will be converted into frequencies which the human ear can't detect and so is completely wasted. Its not much good doubling your output power if only 100 Watts of that extra wattage is turned into sound energy which people can hear......unless of course you plan on doing a lot of gigs at Battersea dogs home

 

According to their specification, your existing speakers have an SPL of 99db

 

http://www.hifi-tower.co.uk/Auna-PW-2222-3...google/10000211

 

These speakers also have Piezo horns for the high frequencies, which are a cheap and cheerful means of producing high frequencies, using a similar technology to that which is used in Burglar Alarm sirens, in other words loud, but lacking in quality. Its much better to choose a speaker with a good quality compression horn driver as its HF unit(s), and not a £4 piece of plastic.

 

An SPL or Sound Pressure Level is an efficiency measurement, which shows how much energy from the amplifier is actually turned into Sound which comes out of the speaker and is usable, in other words, sound which people can hear. The higher the SPL, the better the speaker is at converting those watts from the amplifier into sound energy which people can hear. With an SPL below 100db, a lot of those watts from your Amplifier, simply are not reaching people's ears and are escaping :scared:

 

Any speaker with an SPL below 100db is actually considered pretty poor in professional audio circles. A good quality speaker will have an SPL of around 115 - 122db, whilst a really expensive quality speaker will have one of 125db - 133db. An RCF ART series speaker for example, has an SPL of 131db

 

http://www.decks.co.uk/products/speakers/rcf/ART725A

 

Believe it or not, a speaker with an SPL of 131db running from a 500w amplifier, will actually sound clearer and be perceived to be louder than a speaker of 94db SPL running from amplifier of 700w

 

So in your case, your system has plenty of power but since the speakers are converting that power extremely poorly, only a fraction of that gets converted into usable sound and is heard by the eardrum.

 

I was told it is always to better to get second hand top quality gear than buy brand new 'poo' gear lol.

 

There is a lot of truth in that, provided of course the equipment you are buying is well looked after, and hasn't been ex-hire gear thrashed to one inch of its life by the local 14 year old grunge band. If you get decent ex-demo gear or second hand items of the calibre of QSC, Mackie / RCF etc for a good price, then you'll do well, however that is exactly what every band and DJ is looking for, which tends to hold values and demand often exceeds supply.

 

If you are looking for a reasonable quality speaker, on the second hand market then consider a couple of pairs of Mackie SRM-450's. Or Alternatively a pair of Mackie SRM-450's and a decent active subwoofer

 

If money is no object, then consider a pair of QSC K12's - although you won't get much change from £1500

 

If you are on a budget, then consider a pair of Alto TS112A's and an Alto Truesonic 15" Sub. The TS112A's sound good for their money and also have a respectable SPL of 122db and the Sub has an SPL of 123db, and you'll get still get a warranty and plenty of change from £1000. I recently changed over to a system like this and it easily copes with Weddings in large hotels with 300 guests, and with power to spare.

 

Depends really on your budget, which is the one thing you haven't told us tongue out icon and is probably the most important factor!.

 

 

P.S. Also, I have a wireless mic, and for some reason when it is put through the PA there always seems to be like a radio frequency sound coming out the speakers... what could resolve this?

 

Sounds like its drifted off frequency. Some mics do this as their circuitry ages, and the internal capacitors and crystals 'dry out' and lose tolerance. If its an expensive, desirable Mic, then have it repaired. If its a bog standard budget one - just replace it

 

Also if you could recommend some websites for this type of equipment that would be great.

 

These are pretty good for deals......

 

http://www.whybuynew.co.uk/

http://www.thomann.de/gb/index.html

 

 

Edited June 7, 2012 by McCardle

[jamesgodfrey 0]

Your Skytec amplifier professes to be 2x 750W RMS per channel into 4 ohms. Currently you are only running one 8 ohm speaker off each channel, so that 4 ohm wattage figure will be reduced exponentially. However even at 8 ohms, I would expect at least 500W RMS per channel.

 

Lots of people mis-understand how the human ear converts sound energy, but 'DJ DASH' is pretty much spot on with their description, in that there is sound and SOUND

 

A lot of DJ's seem to think that throwing more and more watts into the equation is the be all - end all solution to their sound issues, and think that 800 watts will sound twice as loud as 400 watts, but in practice, it doesn't work like that, because a large percentage of that extra wattage will be converted into frequencies which the human ear can't detect and so is completely wasted. Its not much good doubling your output power if only 100 Watts of that extra wattage is turned into sound energy which people can hear......unless of course you plan on doing a lot of gigs at Battersea dogs home

 

According to their specification, your existing speakers have an SPL of 99db

 

http://www.hifi-tower.co.uk/Auna-PW-2222-3...google/10000211

 

These speakers also have Piezo horns for the high frequencies, which are a cheap and cheerful means of producing high frequencies, using a similar technology to that which is used in Burglar Alarm sirens, in other words loud, but lacking in quality. Its much better to choose a speaker with a good quality compression horn driver as its HF unit(s), and not a £4 piece of plastic.

 

An SPL or Sound Pressure Level is an efficiency measurement, which shows how much energy from the amplifier is actually turned into Sound which comes out of the speaker and is usable, in other words, sound which people can hear. The higher the SPL, the better the speaker is at converting those watts from the amplifier into sound energy which people can hear. With an SPL below 100db, a lot of those watts from your Amplifier, simply are not reaching people's ears and are escaping :scared:

 

Any speaker with an SPL below 100db is actually considered pretty poor in professional audio circles. A good quality speaker will have an SPL of around 115 - 122db, whilst a really expensive quality speaker will have one of 125db - 133db. An RCF ART series speaker for example, has an SPL of 131db

 

http://www.decks.co.uk/products/speakers/rcf/ART725A

 

Believe it or not, a speaker with an SPL of 131db running from a 500w amplifier, will actually sound clearer and be perceived to be louder than a speaker of 94db SPL running from amplifier of 700w

 

So in your case, your system has plenty of power but since the speakers are converting that power extremely poorly, only a fraction of that gets converted into usable sound and is heard by the eardrum.

There is a lot of truth in that, provided of course the equipment you are buying is well looked after, and hasn't been ex-hire gear thrashed to one inch of its life by the local 14 year old grunge band. If you get decent ex-demo gear or second hand items of the calibre of QSC, Mackie / RCF etc for a good price, then you'll do well, however that is exactly what every band and DJ is looking for, which tends to hold values and demand often exceeds supply.

 

If you are looking for a reasonable quality speaker, on the second hand market then consider a couple of pairs of Mackie SRM-450's. Or Alternatively a pair of Mackie SRM-450's and a decent active subwoofer

 

If money is no object, then consider a pair of QSC K12's - although you won't get much change from £1500

 

If you are on a budget, then consider a pair of Alto TS112A's and an Alto Truesonic 15" Sub. The TS112A's sound good for their money and also have a respectable SPL of 122db and the Sub has an SPL of 123db, and you'll get still get a warranty and plenty of change from £1000. I recently changed over to a system like this and it easily copes with Weddings in large hotels with 300 guests, and with power to spare.

 

Depends really on your budget, which is the one thing you haven't told us tongue out icon and is probably the most important factor!.

Sounds like its drifted off frequency. Some mics do this as their circuitry ages, and the internal capacitors and crystals 'dry out' and lose tolerance. If its an expensive, desirable Mic, then have it repaired. If its a bog standard budget one - just replace it

These are pretty good for deals......

 

http://www.whybuynew.co.uk/

http://www.thomann.de/gb/index.html

 

Thanks for the detailed response... as a group we have always used passive systems.... would you say its better using an active system??? Also, we are only just starting out so we are on a low end budget £500 - £1000, had a look for the TS112A's and was quite surprised that it was just below £500 for a pair, have noticed they are 400w continuous 800 w max, and have a good db level, would tho she louder/clearer than my current system?

 

Also could you tell me how to set up an active system like this, I used to use a behringer vmx300 mixer and used to connect my iPod to that and also a wireless mic, how would all this be connected up with the above speakers?

 

Thanks

 

James

 

PS I know I might sound dumb but I literally don't have a lot of clue about this sort of thing... lol

 

Hi again

 

just so I know I'm on the right track of what to look for, I have found a speaker which is 500w RMS, 1000w Max but with a db level of 129... would this be something which I need to replace my current speakers with???

 

The link for the speaker is here: http://www.discoworldonline.co.uk/index.ph...duct_id=2186553

[McCardle 1]

would you say its better using an active system???

 

Personal preference really. If there was a 'best' or 'perfect' method, then no other option would exist , suffice to say that both Active and Passive systems exist because each have their merits, and their fanclubs. I prefer Actives, as it cuts down the amount of wiring, equipment and setting up times, as I don't have to lug flightcases containing amplifiers around with me. Just place the speaker on the stand, plug in a mains lead and a signal xlr lead, and away you go.

 

I also have to say that for around 15 years I was a steadfast passive speaker fan, and wouldn't give an active system the time of the day. However, technology has evolved, the price has come down, Class D Amplifier designs have meant that many active speakers don't really weigh much more than their passive counterparts, and having used Actives for the last few years, i'd never go back. But like I say, its personal choice!.

 

I used to use a behringer vmx300 mixer and used to connect my iPod to that and also a wireless mic, how would all this be connected up with the above speakers?

 

Its really easy, just keep everything with the Ipod and Mixer exactly the same, but plug the outputs of the mixer directly into the inputs of each speaker using leads of a suitable length. As I said before you generally have a mains lead with an IEC (Kettle style) connector plugged into each speaker, and then a decent quality XLR lead running between your mixer and each speaker. Basically all that you do is connect the 'L' output from the mixer master output socket to the Left Speaker input, and the 'R' output from the Mixer output and plug it into the Right speaker input, and thats it - no external amplifier required. If you need to plug in additional speakers or a Sub, then there are sockets on each speaker which allow you to link out of them and plug into the input of another Active speaker / sub - effectively daisychaining them.

 

just so I know I'm on the right track of what to look for, I have found a speaker which is 500w RMS, 1000w Max but with a db level of 129... would this be something which I need to replace my current speakers with???

 

I've no idea, as i've never used or heard them. This type of thing is exactly like buying a car without first having a test drive, so what I seriously suggest that you do is to take a tour of several music outlets in your area, get an audition of several different system and then make the decision based on YOUR own personal preferences because what we like or recommend may not be to your taste, and its impossible to recommend a speaker entirely from internet link - you need to hear it. There are hundreds of speakers and amplifiers out there, and needless to say you'll be hard pushed to find other DJ's who have tried them all. We can point you in the right direction, but ultimately you need to be the one making the final decision.

 

Your sound system is only as good as the weakest link in its chain. Therefore, its false economy to buy a £500 pair of speakers and plug them into a £199 Amplifier, because despite the 'upgrade' in speakers - the whole system will still only sound like a £199 one. You need to be replacing like-for-like in quality and value right through the entire sound system or if you randomly replace individual components Ad-hoc you'll just end up with the sound equiv of a Mercedes, driven by a lawnmower engine!.

 

Personally, I think you need to be retiring your existing speakers and Amplifier to the 'back up' equipment department, and replace them with something generally considered to be more suited to professional applications. Whether you replace them with another Amplifier and Speakers, or with Active speakers, is entirely personal choice as there is no technical reason for choosing one over the other its down to what you want.

 

One piece of advice I always give, is to always budget more money into your sound system, rather than lighting or other 'novelties'. Very few clients and their guests will complain or refuse to book you again because you had one or two less lighting effects, however they will notice and complain if your Sound system isn't up to scratch, is painful to listen to or they can't hear the lyrics to their favourite songs. So think of your sound system as being a constant first impression to everybody in the room at every gig, and Sound is basically what your entire business hinges on, so invest accordingly. smile icon

 

 

 

 

 

 

[jamesgodfrey 0]

Thanks alot for all the advice given here, it is really helping me decide on what to get...

 

At this point whats interesting me is the QSC K12's, but after looking on their website, they also have K10's and K8's, we tend to do our shows in a sort of concert like setting, long hall, fairly wide. 300 people sitting etc...

 

Would you say K8, K10 OR K12 for this sort of venue?

 

Thanks

 

James

 

I am also getting directed towards the Mackie450 due to the lower price tag.... would you say I would be better off getting the Mackie's or the QSC's for what I need them for?

 

Thanks

 

James

[HeartandSoul 0]

Thanks alot for all the advice given here, it is really helping me decide on what to get...

 

At this point whats interesting me is the QSC K12's, but after looking on their website, they also have K10's and K8's, we tend to do our shows in a sort of concert like setting, long hall, fairly wide. 300 people sitting etc...

 

Would you say K8, K10 OR K12 for this sort of venue?

 

Thanks

 

James

 

I am also getting directed towards the Mackie450 due to the lower price tag.... would you say I would be better off getting the Mackie's or the QSC's for what I need them for?

 

Thanks

 

James

 

Hi, I suggest the mackie srm450s, I have recently bought them after getting tired of lugging a pair of pevey pro15s. They are lighter, and I like the sound. As actives, they make things easier too.

 

[Megasong 0]

You may find what I've written here http://www.dj-forum.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=118&st=105 useful.

 

There are a lot of misunderstandings around sound and loud, some of which are demonstrated in replies in this topic, I've tried to give a few guidelines in my other post.