Speakers And Sound Set Up Help

[wyptaj 0]

Dear All,

 

I'm a mobile DJ, but I'm not very technical, therefore I was wondering if someone can help me with the following :

 

My current set up is a Dynacord MP7 Amp (230v, 450 watts with output power (300watts 4ohms for each speaker connector) which goes into 2 x JBL EON1500 speakers (225w, 8ohms).

This set up is great for venues up to 180 people, above that I don't think it's loud enough without damaging the speakers etc.

 

I have been asked to DJ at some larger venues this year, and I'm looking at speaker set ups.

 

I was wondering, if I bought 2 more JBL EON1500 speakers, could I then have my normal set up, and then from each speaker, via a jack plug lead, run each of the two new speakers ? Would the amplifier be able to handle that ? would the speaker set up work (before I invest in buying them) and would it provide a greater sound in the room to fill a room for 300-350 people ?

Any help would be very greatly appreciated. If you need any more information please let me know.

Many thanks in advance.

Paul

[McCardle 1]

Yes, your Amplifier is capable of driving down to a 4 ohm load per channel. This means that you are able to connect upto 2x 8 ohm speakers to each output channel of your amplifier.

 

Since the Eon's are 8 ohms impedance per cabinet, you can comfortably connect 2 Eon's to each individual channel of your amplifier.

 

However, and perhaps more importantly, the amplifier in the MP7, is only capable of giving 300w per channel, even with the additional pair of speakers connected, and its very unlikely that 600W RMS will be enough to cope with a venue with over 300 people and in all honesty I don't think I would even attempt that, and I certainly wouldn't advise anything which I wouldn't do or try myself :fright:

 

I use a pair of Alto TS115A powered speakers for most small to medium sized venues, which are rated at 400w RMS, and even these, on stands will start to struggle at venues with approaching 150 people single handidly, so I think your expectations for covering a venue with more than double this audience capacity using only 2x 300w will disappoint. So I don't think buying an extra pair of speakers will solve your problem, and will prove to be false economy as it forms only 50% of a workable solution.

 

I'd say that you have already done very well to get coverage for 180 people from a 300w x 2 system, you must have been running that system hard!!.

 

If you are planning on covering this type of capacity on a regular basis, then I would suggest investing in a much larger PA system perhaps using a separate Amp and higher rated Speakers, or a pair of high powered active speakers / bass bin combination which can be plugged into the mixer for larger venues. This way you can continue to use a pair of EON's for pubs and small venues, but take the extra speakers for larger venues & audiences.

 

Sadly, there is no cheap way around this, but consider covering larger venues as an expansion in your business and invest in the extra equipment accordingly. However if a 300+ capacity is just a one off event, then the best and cheapest option will be to hire the PA that you need for the one function, either from a Sound and Lighting company or another DJ.

 

Personally i'd recommend at least a combined total of at least 1500w - 2000w ideally from using a combination of Tops and Bass cabinets, if you want to amply fill a venue with 350 people without pushing a PA system to within an inch of its life.

Edited April 8, 2014 by McCardle

[wyptaj 0]

Hi McCardle,

Thank you very much for your detailed answer, it is very much appreciated.

Is it the speakers that aren't powerful enough (if I have 4 of them) or is it the amp, or is it both ?
The reason I ask is I had forgotten about the backup amp which is a bigger heavier amp Cintronic 170.958

The specs on this amp are 2 x 225wrms @ 4 / 2 x 150wrms and has two right speaker outputs and two left so wondering if that would work ?

[McCardle 1]

It doesn't matter how high the speakers are rated in Watts, you are always limited by the maximum rated output produced by the Amplifier. So whether you plug in a speaker which is rated at 400w or one which is rated at 1200w into the Amplifier, the power output supplied to them by the amplifier will still be only 300w.

 

 

 

The specs on this amp are 2 x 225wrms @ 4 / 2 x 150wrms and has two right speaker outputs and two left so wondering if that would work ?

 

It will work, but the output will still be very very low. This amplifier will produce 225w RMS per channel using four speakers (2 speakers plugged into each channel), or 150 watts per channel with two speakers (one speaker per channel). So in other words, the back up Amplifier you have will only produce a maximum of 225w per channel using all four speakers, so its actually less powerful than the 300w + 300w one in the MP7.

 

Your EON's are rated at 225w Continuous / 900w peak per speaker cabinet. If you intend on using two pairs of EON's both driven from one amplifier, then you have a combined speaker handling capacity of 450w continuous per side (Channel).

 

Generally, its advised that you can select an amplifier with a rated RMS output of upto 1.5x the continuous handling of the speakers, so in this case you could probably use an amplifier which is rated at between 500w - 600w RMS per channel @ 4 ohms.

 

So if you want to get the most out of two pairs of EON1500's the best advice would be to buy a larger, reasonable qualiy amplifier, which gives 500 - 600w RMS per channel at 4 ohms.

 

Examples of a suitable higher powered amplifier would be something like a Behringer EPQ1200, Cerwin Vega CV1800, Peavey PV1500, QSC RMX1850

 

It may be worth checking out Ebay as you can often find the amplifiers mentioned, plus other similar ones second hand at reasonable prices. Try and avoid the very cheap end of the market, such as Skytec, Stageline, Ibiza, Ekho etc. If you are on a limited budget often its better to buy a decent amp second hand than to buy a brand new budget amplifier.

 

These are all quite good second hand amplifiers

 

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/CROWN-Xls602-Power-Amplifier-Used-BLACK-/171246483204

 

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Yamaha-P4500-Power-Amp-Amplifier-1-440-Watts-Band-DJ-Karaoke-PA-System-/151273039329

 

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/C-audio-RA3000-stereo-power-amp-amplifier-2U-rack-similar-to-RA3001-/301148061799

Edited April 9, 2014 by McCardle

[wyptaj 0]

Hi McCardle,

Thank you so much for your help on this, it is really very much appreciated.

 

As I mentioned in my first post I'm not very technical on this kind of thing...I know where all the plugs go but then that's it...and of course I know how to DJ - well I think so anyway!

 

Thanks again...

Hello again McCardle,

I've had a look at the ebay items and sorry to ask more questions...
If I bought one of the amplifiers you have suggested, would the amp be good enough to produce sound for an audience of 300 ? If so would I need to also buy some other speakers different to the JBL EON1500's (even if I had 4) to make it work ?

 

Many thanks again.

[McCardle 1]

If I bought one of the amplifiers you have suggested, would the amp be good enough to produce sound for an audience of 300 ? If so would I need to also buy some other speakers different to the JBL EON1500's (even if I had 4) to make it work ?

 

In all honesty I still stick by my first post, advising that 1500w to 2000w with a little more bass reinforcement would probably be a more comfortable figure and system to aim for, if the 350 capacity is going to be a regular thing.

 

The higher power amplifier suggestion with the two pairs of EON's is going to be the cheapest and simplest option, and this will potentially give you a maximum of 1200w (2x 600w) from the EON's assuming you chose one of the 600w x 2 amplifier options, so its close to my original recommendation of 1500w and certainly one big step in the right direction compared to the 2x 300w available from the MP7, but whether its close enough will largely come down to the acoustics of the venue, the positioning of the speakers etc. It may be enough, it may not, every venue and situation is different. Personally I prefer to run my own sound system(s) at no more than 75% - 80% of their potential, as it sounds better, gives more headroom for bass peaks and often results in the system running cooler, i've also never once blown any speaker component using this philosophy, so I use it as good practice when offering others advice.

 

Either way its generally accepted that running a system - any system, at full whack with the wick cranked up to the max and the clip / peak lights lit an angry continuous red is not a good thing, either for your sound quality of the longevity of the system being driven, so whatever you choose to do and whichever system you run with, you should always avoid that situation.

 

Nobody can tell you whether the higher powered amp running two pairs of EON's would work, unless they have played the same venue(s) using that identical system, its a gamble, but at the same time it would be poor advice telling you to splash out four figures on a complete new sound system, if the cheaper option would / could have worked in your venue(s).

 

Another viable option which partly uses what you already have in order to reduce outlay, would be to buy a larger second hand amplifier, and use it to drive the two pairs of EON's as previously mentioned and perhaps also invest in a new / second hand pair of powered bass bins with built in amplifiers?. The extra power output of self powered subs covering the bass frequencies should easily give you enough to handle 300+ people with relative ease.

 

If space / transport vehicle is an issue then you may get away with using just one centrally placed active bass speaker, if you don't mind it not being cosmetically symmetrical!. For example, one or two of these will give you a decent bass boost, when used alongside two pairs of EON's

 

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Alto-Truesonic-TS-SUB-12-600W-Compact-Powered-Active-Bass-Bin-Subwoofer-/281254128575

 

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/B-Stock-Cerwin-Vega-CVA-115-15-1400W-Active-Powered-DJ-PA-Bass-Bin-Subwoofer-/171219755213

 

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Pair-of-Studiomaster-VPX15SUB-15-Active-Bass-Speakers-DJ-Karaoke-600-watt-each-/111320209145

 

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/DB-Technologies-12-inch-Powered-Bass-Bins-/221408167813

 

Really, all i can suggest at this point, is to perhaps hire a 600w per channel Amp along with a powered sub for your first gig with a 300+ audience capacity, use the hired Amp with both pairs of Eon's and see how you go on. If the system is found to be loud and adequate enough with the hire gear, then you will then have the confidence to invest in the larger amp and powered sub(s) of your own.

 

If hire equipment isn't easily available, then you will have to make the decision on what to get based only on advice.

Edited April 10, 2014 by McCardle

[wyptaj 0]

Thank you so much for all your help...It's been great to be able to ask these questions and understand more about what would/wouldn't work as you say before investing in a brand new system, if there is other options available.

 

Thank you again, you've been invaluable...

[wyptaj 0]

Hi McCardle
I've been looking around, at various options, and seen the Maui Speakers :

 

http://www.theaudioworksuk.com/index.php/ld-systems-maui-28-800w-twin-active-array-pa-system.html
I have spoken to the dealer, who says one speaker set up is fine for normal Weddings up to 150 people, and two together would cover 300 people..I like it because it means I can still fit it in the car without having huge speakers to carry around with me. But I notice that it's only 800w whereas you mention it should be double that ?

[McCardle 1]

I have spoken to the dealer, who says one speaker set up is fine for normal Weddings up to 150 people, and two together would cover 300 people

 

I would be extremely cautious about any claims that this system can cope with venues holding 300+ people in our type of application without physically proving it for yourself. You will find several discussions around the forum in relation to the Bose L1 system, which generally discussed the lack of bass that the L1 system had when covering large venues with large audience capacities, many of those DJ's using the L1 had to invest in additional bass speakers or additional L1 systems in order to deal with the issues.

 

Bear in mind that the L1 was a similar Vertical array system design to this one, was made by a premium manufacturer (Bose) and, at the time cost over £2000 for a one speaker system.

 

When comparing a sound system, wattage isn't the only comparison in the equation there is another aspect of the specification which is equally as important and this is the SPL rating. The SPL rating is an indicator of how efficient the speaker is, at converting wattage into actual usable sound. The higher the SPL figure, the better the speaker is, and will generally indicate a higher quality in both design and technology

 

The system you have been recommended has a max SPL 115 dB and I would describe this as being just slightly above average at best. Certainly it doesn't grab my attention or lead me to believe that its anything special. If you take a look at the specifications of the JBL EON's, which you have

 

https://www.jblpro.com/pub/mi/eon1500_usersguide.pdf

 

Then you will find that the max spl on these is quoted as being 129db - far higher than the 'new' speakers which you are considering.

 

Unfortunately, sales people are often lead by targets, commissions or the instructions to clear whatever isn't moving very fast out of the showroom. In other words, I go through life believing that these facts will generally combine to override somebody in a sales role acting in my best interests when trying to close a deal.

 

With this in mind, I prefer to go away, read reviews, ask questions and do my own research rather than listening to what the person selling them to me says or thinks, and the fact that you are here asking the question, also indicates that perhaps you also share this suspicion also!.

 

In all honesty, I haven't heard the speakers in question so in all fairness I cannot comment on how they sound or whether they will adequately cover a venue filled with 300+ people, but my experience would suggest its probably unlikely and my money would be staying in my wallet.

 

These 'Line Array' speakers, are generally used for bands, speech (PA) and live vocalists, rather than DJ's, and as such they generally are very good at producing and projecting vocal frequencies but struggle to produce a really good and tight bass response. In a large venue, playing recorded music through 300 closely packed bodies, Bass is your ally and you need plenty of it to get past the solid low frequency absorbing bodies at the front of the room. Hence the advice I gave about adding a decent pair of subs into your existing system, and boosting this area of your PA.

 

This isn't about rattling glasses off the bar with bass to make a point, its just about having enough bass in reserve to make it through a few hundred people packed onto the dance floor so that it doesn't sound tinny and rattly when it finally reaches the back of the room, and I honestly don't think that these types of speaker design cut it (and this opinion is based on personally hearing and using the aforementioned Bose L1)

 

But why not put the sales persons confidence to the test?. Tell them, that if they truly believe their promises that the system they are recommending can cope with 300 people, then will they offer you a no quibble written money back guarantee stating this as a cast iron fact. So, if you do your first gig with them, and find this to be untrue, you can return them straight back to the showroom in pristine condition in return for a full refund. Of course if the person goes a funny colour, makes excuses or rapidly back tracks, then I think that would be enough to walk away .

 

Edit:- There are also very few user reviews of this system online. I've managed to find one from a German live music forum, which thanks to a translator you can just about read and understand the main points they make. It would seem that their concerns are roughly the same as mine - i.e more suitable for speech, for smaller venues and a concern over lack of bass response and the low SPL rating. The link, to the forum, via the translator is below

 

http://translate.google.co.uk/translate?hl=en&sl=de&u=http://www.musiker-board.de/pa-anlagen-fuer-proberaum-kleine-gigs-pa/433148-ld-systems-maui-28-a.html&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dldwave28%2Breview%26start%3D10%26sa%3DN%26biw%3D1280%26bih%3D605

Edited April 13, 2014 by McCardle

[wyptaj 0]

Hi McCardle

Thank you again for your help.

 

I want to make sure if I invest in a new system then it has to work and be good enough for a 300 strong crowd.

 

I was wondering, is there a sound system you can recomment for 300 people which :

Is small and compact i.e. can fit on the back seats of a car as I dont want to buy a van etc.

Isnt too heavey so can be carried easily into the rooms.

Gives enough for up to 300 people

Budget around £1500-£2000

Looks professional as these events are Dinners etc as I'm not a pub Dj

 

Any help would be very much appreciated.

 

Thanks again

[McCardle 1]

Thats not an easy task!. "Compact" and "Large Venue Sound System" don't really go hand in hand with each other :fright: .

 

However, there are some compact high power speakers around, at the top end of the market which may just squeeze into your budget

 

QSC K12 - These are cabs which only have 12" drivers in them, meaning that they aren't much bigger than regular speakers. They are active, which means the amplifier is built into them, so it cuts down on equipment and set up time as you don't need to carry an amplifier, or spend time wiring them all up. It also means that you don't have the worry about matching an amplifier to your speakers, as its done for you!. The amazing thing about them, is that they are rated at 1000W RMS Continuous, from a 12" speaker. So a pair of these will give you 2000W of output power, in a speaker which probably isn't that much different in physical size than your EONs

 

http://www.guitarguitar.co.uk/pa-live/detail.asp?stock=10051215431332&gclid=CIr96_OO3r0CFUTMtAodKmwArQ#main-product-overview

 

Another possibility is the DB Technologies Opera 715DX - these have been mentioned a few times on here previously and seem to come highly recommended. They use a 15" driver, and so are a little bigger than the K12's, but this should give a little extra bass response. The Opera's are slightly lower powered than the K12's at 700w RMS each, but a pair will still give a highly respectable 1400 W RMS of output.

 

http://www.thedjshop.co.uk/db-technologies-opera-715-dx-active-pa-speaker.html?gclid=CMTz3d2Q3r0CFQcewwodZVcAdw

 

The FBT MAXX 14A are also a good buy, mixing high power with a fairly compact speaker. These are about as light as a high powered speaker will get, weighing just over 16kg each

 

http://www.jpleisure.co.uk/item54077.htm?gclid=CNGj3tqS3r0CFUsUwwodroEAzQ

 

And probably the cheapest out of the lot, are these EV ZLX15P - EV is a very respectable manufacturer with a good reputation, so these, which are at the lower end of their range, price wise should still rate pretty highly for what you need.

 

http://www.whybuynew.co.uk/dj-equipment/dj-speakers/electro-voice-zlx15p-15-1000-watt-active-powered-pa-speaker.htm?gclid=CPKp69uV3r0CFYMSwwodjEgAVg

Edited April 13, 2014 by McCardle

[wyptaj 0]

Hi McCardle,

Thank you for your response once again...I like the look and style of the first one you recommended : QSC K12's

With these speakers could I still use my Dynacord as the mixer (even thought it has the amp as well) and just have the wires going out of my mixer and into the speakers ? Or would that cause issues?
Thanks once again..

[McCardle 1]

Yes, you can your mixer exactly the same as you did before. The only difference being that you are plugging the audio from the master output of the mixer into your new active speakers, and effectively ignoring the built in power amplifier of the mixer.

 

You can plug in a pair of active speakers using the mixers' master line outputs (Obviously don't use the speaker outputs at the back of the mixer!). You should connect the powered speakers to the "Master A" jack socket outputs on the top of the front panel. I would recommend buying some good quality balanced cables for running between the mixer output and the inputs of the active speakers.

 

Most modern amplifiers will run into an open circuit (no speakers connected) without any damage. I've checked the MP7 user manual and I can't see anything which warns against leaving its built in amplifier outputs unconnected. I've done something similar with a Studiomaster PA mixer many times over several years and its not suffered any damage to the internal amplifier.

 

In the (unlikely) event, that you would require another set of speakers in addition to the K12's, you could always hook up your existing EON's to the built in amplifier in the MP7. Alternatively, if you ever needed to run audio into a side room (for background music at a large Wedding venue for example), then you could use the EON's and the mixers' internal amplifier for doing this.

 

But I think that you will find that the 1000w RMS given by each of the K12's will handle 300+ people with ease, but I would still recommend putting them on stands.

Edited April 15, 2014 by McCardle

[wyptaj 0]

Thank you again McCardle...and good job you explained how I should connect then, otherwise I would have been using my speakers outputs from the mixer and into the new speakers....

Like I say technical stuff I'm not very good with, but hopefully I'm an OK Dj at actual events !!

 

Many thanks, I will now leave you in peace !

[McCardle 1]

Just one last thing.

 

This is the type of lead which you need to connect the mixer output to the K12's. You will need two, one for each speaker (A third one is handy as a spare in case one lead fails at a gig)

 

http://www.ipswichpa.co.uk/professional-tour-grade-van-damme--neutrik-trs-balanced-jack-to-xlr-male-plug-lead-1163-p.asp

 

There are various lead lengths for sale, just choose the one which is best for covering the distance between the mixer and the speakers.

 

The jack plug end plugs into one of the Mixer "Master A" jack sockets, and the round XLR end at the other end of the lead then plugs into the "Mic / Line A" socket at the back of the K12

 

Then do exactly the same with the other K12, plugging the jack plug end into the remaining "Master A" jack socket on the mixer,

 

Once you have done this, double check the set up - you should have one K12 speaker plugged into the "Master A " socket and the other K12 plugged into the "Master A " socket

 

Also make sure that the Mic / Line switch on the back of each of the K12's is set to "Line"

 

Plug the speakers in, switch the mixer on and your good to go.

Edited April 15, 2014 by McCardle

[wyptaj 0]

Hi McCardle,

Thank you for your recommendation, I have now bought the K12 Speakers and used them at the first event, and all great....so thank you again for all your help, time and advice.
Wishing you all the very best...