BPI

[DJ Marky Marc 0]

will somone call Apple and tell then that they need to stop selling Ipods becuase if you copy your cds then you are breaking the law and a big part of there advertising is based the fact that you can copy your cds........

[cookiecat 0]

QUOTE

will somone call Apple and tell then that they need to stop selling Ipods becuase if you copy your cds then you are breaking the law and a big part of there advertising is based the fact that you can copy your cds.......

I am by no means an expert but as far as I am aware even video recorders breach copyright laws however for home use the law seems to have been skipped around.However if you were to use your videos to make personal gain then this may be a different kettle of fish. This may apply for ipods etc.

[Gary 0]

QUOTE (brianmole @ Oct 18 2004, 02:00 PM)

I am taking a guess here, but I imagine that about 70% of mobiles use MP3 technology, so the resolution is urgent is it not???

Thats a fair guess, although a tad high.

 

As of Quarter 3 2003, approx (just under) 28% of mobile DJ's used MP3's for some part of their show.

 

I've got no background info on "why" its not lower, or higher, but I would say that the factors include:

 

Hardware:

 

*Not all CD-decks support MP3's.

 

*Some manufacturers have indeed turned their back on MP3's totally on their DJ gear, hiding behind the fiction of "MP3=piracy".

 

*Some DJ-decks which offer MP3 playback, offer a reduced function/feature list when MP3's are used. (Big hint: Avoid recording in "Variable Bit Rate" like the plague...)

 

 

DJ preference

 

* some DJ's have had bad experiences with original MP3 quality eg: Downloaded from a site where the uploader set their recording level high just to see "der pwetty wed lights"

 

* some DJ's claim that the audience will notice the difference between a (properly) recorded MP3 and another source - and stop dancing...(as if!)

 

 

Note: If anyones planning on starting up an MP3 sound quality debate - start a new thread... dont hijack this one.

 

 

Back on topic for this thread...(cough)... We mobile DJ's might not be planning to entertain 100,000 people on a beach next summer, under the watchful eye of the worlds media, but the record companies seem to have obligingly overlooked the fact that when we play one of the songs, by one of their artists, we are giving their tune and their artist publicity, public exposure, possibly influencing some of our audiences to either go out and buy a CD single or CD album of that artist.

 

There have been dozens of times (over the years) where a track, an artist DIDNT get played by me because I simply couldnt find the track in the time that I had available - I knew "its in here somewhere" but alas....no airplay for that tune. If I'd had my whole collection on Laptop, or 3000 tunes in WAV format on DVD-R, I would have played that tune...oh the lost advertising potential when you times that by the number of DJ's in the same boat.

 

Im not asking to be sent more freebee promo records/CDs', but I wish that the record companies would show a little "give" to DJ's. It's not as if we're all obtaining a legit copy of the latest album by...whoever, and offering CDR's of it at the end of each gig, or a "This tune burnt to CDR while you dance to it" service...I think that we're being tainted with a much bigger brush.

 

Besides some copyright laws are being bent regularly? Anyone record anything off the TV recently? including that bit at the end of the credits which says Copyright BBC© MMIV. Theres a bit of copyright material, thousands of people must record 10's of thousands of copyright TV programs every day, and yet you dont hear about Mrs Jones of Droitwich having her Ferguson Videostar VCR and Scotch E180 getting conviscated for lending the tape to Eithel, two doors down with the terrier. http://www.dj-forum.co.uk/html/emoticons/533.gif

 

True, the copyright material is only being recorded for "timeshifting" purposes and isnt likely to be duplicated 300 times and flogged from a bendy wallpaper table at the next car boot sale, but then we're not doing that either with music.

Edited October 18, 2004 by Gary

[ChrisPointon 0]

Just to quote a comment on the BPI's site, which Marc posted a link to on another thread...

 

QUOTE

Isn't it legal to make copies for my own personal use? The laws of some countries have limited exceptions to the rights owners' rights to control copying, which allow a limited number of copies to be made strictly for personal and private use. These exceptions do not apply, however, if you make available or transmit copyright material over the internet, distribute your 'private' copies, or (in many countries) copy from illegal sources. In short, the law does not allow indiscriminate peer-to-peer transfers of copyright material. These do not fit the definition of 'private' copies. This is 'public' copying among millions of users.

 

© remains with the BPI

 

Now since private functions don't require a PPL, is this classed as Private use? in which case the limited exceptions, for making copies for personal use would seem to apply. However the term 'some countries' doesn't say whether the UK has limited exceptions, and what these exceptions are.

 

To add further to the debate, why are some countries excepted from some rules?, I thought that copyright was supposed to represent the interests of the copyright holder worldwide?. It would be fairer (For the artist as well as the purchaser) for all countries to subscribe to one copyright law?. Since this is where the confusion begins, Why don't all countries to subscribe to a single worldwide copyright law or not subscribe to one at all? http://www.dj-forum.co.uk/html/emoticons/wacko.gif .

 

QUOTE

will somone call Apple and tell then that they need to stop selling Ipods because if you copy your cds then you are breaking the law and a big part of there advertising is based the fact that you can copy your cds........

 

I know its a tongue in cheek comment but some people do think that this is a defence, but in reality it's no longer a valid argument. For years broadband has been advertised as a means to "Download Music upto XX times faster than dial up", yet most UK ISP's actively ban the illegal use of P2P or illegal music download activities in their TOS some even block them at firewall level.

 

The reason that Ipods exist, as many other Mp3 players do is that they are purely recording / playback devices and NOT a means for mass duplication therefore no current law can effectively be used to ban their sale. Besides even if a ban was brought out it would be difficult to police and enforce, after all copying music is not illegal in all jurisdictions as TE pointed out, and do you think that Apple would cease production of IPODS just because the UK said so?.

[DJ Marky Marc 0]

Just spoken to the lawyer's at the BPI personaly and I have been told the following.

 

"It is a breach of copyright law in the UK to copy your music to your laptopor ipod"

 

full stop.....

 

If you want to work within the law then you guys are all going to have to lobby parliment and have it changed or move to another country.

[cookiecat 0]

Should put the cat among the pigeons.

[Dukesy 0]

Yep - Colin is right! http://www.dj-forum.co.uk/html/emoticons/rolleyes.gif

 

Bets on how long before we see the ol' BPI and Co clamping down on DJ entertainers for such related matters?

 

How long before the News at Ten items the 'plight' of the 'humble Disc Jockey'??!!

 

With the amount of worms that'll be around - fishing might be an ideal occupation to take up! http://www.dj-forum.co.uk/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[Loz 0]

QUOTE

I am by no means an expert but as far as I am aware even video recorders breach copyright laws however for home use the law seems to have been skipped around.

 

 

Apparently if you record anything off the telly you are not allowed to keep it for more than 28 days after which you must erase the tape. It's as successfull as somebody being caught letting their dog foul on the pavement!!!

[Mikeh 0]

Hmm

 

If we want to take this really in dept surely playing the music on your PC is illegal too even with cd in the drive? When you play a music cd the data is COPIED into the memory and then played from there, where do these limits end? Maybe its time for us DJ's to stand up to the goverment, get some petitions going and make this matter known!

 

Theres no way in hell they are going to stop the sharing of MP3's over the net, its impossible! The only way for the record industries to survive is to actually find out WHY people do things illegaly in the first place and then work from there! Hasnt anyone told them as much as £4.99 for ONE song on ONE cd is a tad too much?

 

 

Cyas

Mike

[Hugmaster 0]

Hi

 

Given that 28% of DJ use mp3 in some degree or other in their shows, and the amount of DJ's there are in the UK alone. I find it odd that we haven't heard about any of them being prosecuted.

 

I'd say given the amount of members we have on this forum, one of us should've had the hammer fall on them.

 

Given that most gigs are provate afairs, wouldn't the relevent authorities need to get a warrent to at least question the dj performing at that function.

 

Personally, like it or not, I think the chances of a DJ getting the book thrown at them are so remote, it's hardly worth talking about, unless of course the mp3 came from an illegal source in the first place.

 

Let's get some perspective please.

 

Darren

[kazzachi 0]

Dont be fooled for one moment that it is a scare mongering..... I know of TWO djs who have been prosecuted.... and you have to realise that this forum - although has a high membership, work that out in relation to actual posting djs.....

 

People need to wake up a bit..... If you are taking for granted that "Well I dont know anybody who has been prosecuted, so therefore the chances must be remote", you are deluding yourselves.......... There are active task forces who are at this moment targetting licensed venues to carry out the task of protecting copyright laws..... in fact some "men in suits" are actually turning up post install to check that all systems put into pubs/club/restaurants are only using music systems which have got the appropriate licenses.

 

It is a FACT that playing copied music is illegal. Ive never been done for speeding, but that doesnt mean to say that I never will. One further thing to consider is that computer dj-ing is still in its infancy.......... and the BPI know what is going on... so they will and are going to be having a very close look at djs...so IF they do ever turn up at one of your gigs then DONT be surprised.

[Dukesy 0]

QUOTE

Given that most gigs are private affairs, wouldn't the relevent authorities need to get a warrent to at least question the dj performing at that function.

 

Not sure about questions - but a warrent (I believe) is required to search / examine personal equipment, ie a laptop.

However, it probably wouldn't be required if Customs Officers paid a visit! http://www.dj-forum.co.uk/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[tonyj 0]

this is a good thread, really enjoying this debate.

 

now can any tell me if we are talking a criminal or civil offence being commited and who is responsible for enforceing this law..... police? trading standards? local authority licencing or is it that the individual artist or management company have to take you to court?????

 

btw customs ( i believe) need warrents to remove property.

 

 

 

 

[ChrisPointon 0]

HM Customs and Excise have greater powers than the police, since it is classed as acting on the 'Queens Business', however I don't think that this would be an issue which they would persue.

 

I believe that the Police have powers to stop and search people on the street under PACE, and use the same Law to enter buildings where there is reason for the officer to believe that a wanted individual is residing. For instance if you went shop lifting and were caught and then did a runner, and entered your house, then I believe that the police would have sufficient and reasonable grounds to enter the premises and search you and the building under PACE.

 

With regard to copyright issues whether it is a civil or criminal matter depends on the seriousness of the charge.

 

I don't believe that anybody can enter and search a premises at a private function without a warrant, unless it is with permission being granted. However, I do believe that the PRS have the authority to view music media at Public functions such as a pub or club with the permission of the landlord / manager.

[Paul Forsyth 0]

Great debate!

 

This is definately where a professional body would or should have some clout. I don't know whether it would be worth the different associations linking up to form a united front on this one - or if the MU (as it appears to have changed it's views on mobile dj's (at least for membership) could take up the cause.

The best place to get involved is definately in the beginning, so that our views can help produce guidelines to the government.

My opinion on this comes from my background as a commercial sales agent who nearly fell foul of company reaction to the introduction of european regulations govourning commercial agents. Had it not been for the union that I belonged to I would have been facing a real problem, this was folloing the termination of a contract. The fact that the union had been involved in the discussion process on how the new regulations were to be interpreted meant that they and I had a head start.

I know they are two different issues but a union or other organisation putting our point of view forward would be a big advantage.

 

Vinnie

[Eskie 0]

All this talk of belonging to some sort of union/ DJ organisation etc gives me an idea for a poll. I firmly agree with some of the recent postings on this and it would be good if NADJ, SEDA, the MU etc could get together on this.

The poll I'm gonna start will basically try to establish how many people on here do belong to one of these unions/organisations.

[ChrisPointon 0]

Not sure whether the MU would get involved with the recorded music side of things, since they respresent the copyright issues of live music performers and never the twain shall meet I think in this respect. I have, however brought the attention of the forum to them, so I would be happy to ask the question of them.

[Ian Stewart 0]

QUOTE (Chris_Pointon @ Oct 19 2004, 05:17 PM)

Not sure whether the MU would get involved with the recorded music side of things, since they respresent the copyright issues of live music performers and never the twain shall meet I think in this respect. I have, however brought the attention of the forum to them, so I would be happy to ask the question of them.

This is not exactly true, as they also represent people who use backing tracks of some kind whether it be midi files or audio tracks.

 

I know of many bands who do not play 100% live, with some/most of the backing being pre-recorded, also there are loads of self contained duo's & vocalists who use pre-recorded backing tracks, either on CD, Mini Disc or on PC.

 

many of these people will buy a Karaoke disc, and then copy the required tracks onto a MINI DISC, so this law is relevant to them as well

[ChrisPointon 0]

Good Point, I'll include that in my letter to them.

[mikeee 0]

Ian, a lot of backing tracks, are made by musicians and for the most part are exempt, and the part that isn't, pay royalties.

 

And this is the crux of the problem - Paying Royalties. If we did, we would be licenced, and there wouldn't be a problem.

 

If any of you get The Stage, There are always ad's for backing tracks, and they state that they are licenced.

 

 

[Ian Stewart 0]

QUOTE (mikeee @ Oct 19 2004, 11:05 PM)

Ian, a lot of backing tracks, are made by musicians and for the most part are exempt, and the part that isn't, pay royalties. And this is the crux of the problem - Paying Royalties. If we did, we would be licenced, and there wouldn't be a problem. If any of you get The Stage, There are always ad's for backing tracks, and they state that they are licenced.

Mikee,

 

most of the vocalists I know use karaoke backing tracks from sunfly etc, some buy the actual karaoke discs and copy the tracks they want to use, others get other people to copy the tracks for them

[mikeee 0]

Perhaps they need a visit from the bogie man as well as us poor DJ's.

[Dukesy 0]

Is the Data Protection Act part of the 'equation' too?

(Reference to 'artistic material', 'data controller', etc.)

 

Mp3s, by basic definition, is surely 'data'. http://www.dj-forum.co.uk/html/emoticons/rolleyes.gif

So without going into the ins and outs, could it be argued that (in basic terms) that the 'data controller' (DJ) when processing the 'data' as 'artistic material' (expression) remains exempt in accordance with the Special Purpose exemption rule, 2.4 - 2.5.4, headed Regulatory Activity.

 

Whilst looking at the Data protection Act, it struck me that in one shape or form, those DJs that use mp3s may be considered 'data controllers'.

If so, then there are a set of Principles, individual rights and exemptions to sign up to!!!

I would like to know if every avenue has been investigated - such as the Transitional Period Rule Exemptions (backup data) as in effect 1984.....or whenever.

 

In other words, can the Data Protection Act be 'used' to assist a DJ?

 

Trans?

 

 

 

[Hugmaster 0]

Hi

 

Regarding kaz's reply in respect of the number of DJ's being prosecuted vs the number actually out on the road...

 

My point is simply this...

 

I'm assuming the powers that be can't just waltz into a private function and say, ello elllo elo surely.

 

Firstly, they would have to know that the DJ was using a laptop system.

 

Second they would have to know in advance that the laptop DJ was going to be at that particular venue on that particular date I don't know about you, but I don't advertise the fact that I'm playing at a specific venue to anyone but my diary. http://www.dj-forum.co.uk/html/emoticons/tongue.gif

 

In other words they would surely need to suspect that some illegal activity was going on or they would be turning up at everyone's parties. Surely they're not that dumb as to just stick a pin in a list of venues and say right then, we'll go there tonight.

 

Furthermore, wouldn't that be very much like the police wandering into a pub and conducting random drug/breath tests, whatever happened to civil liberties? And I never thought I'd ever be saying that http://www.dj-forum.co.uk/html/emoticons/sad.gif

 

The world has gone totally bloody mad.

 

By all means the authorities should slam down hahrd on illegal file sharers, bootsale pirates etc, but for god's sake, 99.9% of laptop DJ's are running totalally above board systems, promoting artists material, and at no advertising charge to the artist or music industry!

 

This is going to reach breaking point at some stage, and I'm betting it'll be soon.

 

Darren

Edited October 20, 2004 by Hugmaster

[Kingy 0]

Have none of you never worked where the man ( or woman) from PRS has turned up, sat with you and logged every track you played?

 

I (and a couple of my mates) certainly have. They are not interested in your details, just what you are playing......for the distribution of royalties apparantly!