BPI

[ChrisPointon 0]

@Kingy - No never although i'm guessing that this would have occured at a Public Function such as a pub / nightclub, since the PRS have no royalty interest in private functions. I know that radio stations have to keep a list of what is played for the same reason, so I suppose that it would also apply for Public events.

 

@Hugmaster

 

The police can randomly raid pubs / venues for drugs, although there has to be a certain amount of evidence to justify it, although a raid can often be arranged just on the basis of a well informed tip off.

 

I doubt that the authorites could just walk into a private function and demand to see what music you had / were playing without a warrant, since this would be similar to them gatecrashing your houseparty on New Years Eve. I'm not legally qualified so don't take what I advise as being the be all and end all of the debate this is just my view.

 

This however doesn't mean that we should not be campaigning for the right to be able to back up our original material - once, whether its for convenience or in the interests of being able to 'insure' our collection and our livlihood against fire or loss.

 

We are possibly one of the biggest, unpaid (from the point of view of the label) promotors of artiste material, yet we have only the same rights as the average teenager buying one CD a month.

 

It would be interesting to see what fraction of the total revenue, we DJ's contribute to the industry.

[Kingy 0]

QUOTE (Chris_Pointon @ Oct 20 2004, 09:20 AM)

@Kingy - No never although i'm guessing that this would have occured at a Public Function such as a pub / nightclub, since the PRS have no royalty interest in private functions. I know that radio stations have to keep a list of what is played for the same reason, so I suppose that it would also apply for Public events.

Yes, local nightclub. This has happened twice to me and a couple of times to other jocks.

[Gary 0]

QUOTE (Hugmaster @ Oct 20 2004, 06:30 AM)

99.9% of laptop DJ's are running totally above board systems.

Darren, thats a guess - and I respect you totally for making it an optimistic guess.

 

I suspect that no-one has accurate figures on that - and besides, with the BPI hiding usable facts behind "Some countries laws state..., other countries laws state..." we still dont know what a "totally above board" system is.

 

However, I'd agree with anyone who says thats theres a world of copyright difference between the following two examples:

 

 

Example 1:

You have 300 shop bought CD's - you rip/load/transfer them all onto your laptop, keep the CD's in a locked cupboard, safely at home and "gig" from your laptop.

 

Example 2:

Norman No-decks buys a laptop, buys a new £140 300gb external harddrive with its "one-touch" backup button, pops around to his mates house, or "Dodgy disco deals r'us" shop, plugs his external drive up to a legitimate(?) laptops USB and hits "backup". X hours later, he's hired speakers, amp and a laser, and has 20,000 tunes, none of which he could hum if you asked him to.

 

 

As for officials walking into gigs. The only ones I've encountered have been noise-abatement officers at a "Pitched all-summer" marquee, where the neighbours had moaned. But even the Noise-abatement chappie had to book an appointment with the venue owners to allow him in - so we surrounded the dancefloor with 12 small speakers that night, instead of 4 big ones. http://www.dj-forum.co.uk/html/emoticons/whistling.gif

Edited October 20, 2004 by Gary

[DJ Marky Marc 0]

Yes I think we all agree that the chances of the police turning up at your private party to see if your playing MP3's is slim, But do you want to be the first person this happens too, Do you want to end up as the test case for the BPI, im guessing here but I think the BPI legal department has more money than you as a DJ and would be able to string things out and prevent you form earning a living untill they get things there own way!

 

And dont for a second think that the data Protection act will save you, its just more red tape for them to use when they get you to court. http://www.dj-forum.co.uk/html/emoticons/wallbash.gif

 

one of two things needs to happen

 

1) the law must be changed to allow a single leagal copy to be made of your media be it digital or physical.

 

this would benifit every one and be the simple option

 

2) they licence DJ's in the UK and this licence allows us to copy tracks into other formats eg MP3 or 12" to cd.

 

this would be more likely as the rights of joe public are still restricted and requires no change of the copyright act. also making them at the BPI more money.

 

I dont know which is the best way forward and you all have vaild points, but i know these things take time and untill then as I dont wish to be the test case I will be sticking to playing my CD's and 12" , This news will however upset my roadie as he was looking forward to not having to lug my record collection arround (thank god there is no roadies union or he would call a strike http://www.dj-forum.co.uk/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif ).

 

 

 

 

 

[Dukesy 0]

Right - latest word from MCPS this morning...

 

If a DJ legally downloads a song onto the playback device (and pays) for 'a track' (mp3) - it is no different to purchasing a CD single / album off the shelf.

That track can be played at any venue as long as the venue has PRS (blanket cover).

It would be treated the same as playing a CD, legality wise.

 

However, if a DJ 'rips' from an original (paid for) CD onto the playback device - it is in breech of the current law.

 

It is far cheaper to download the required song (paid for legally) than to try to obtain a duplication rights licence which would allow a DJ to ripp his CD collection.

 

Therefore, playing mp3s that are legally downloaded on to the Playback device and broadcast in a licensed venue - is totally and utterly legal.

 

Ripping CDs for playback in public is not legal.

 

Hope that explains the current situation. http://www.dj-forum.co.uk/html/emoticons/014.gif

 

What we now need is an 'online' company that can supply mp3 tracks at 0.01 pence each!

 

 

[ChrisPointon 0]

There is still a big difference in price to downloading a legal Mp3 @ 79p - 99p each than buying a CDS @ £2.99 - £3.99 each. All we need now is to pressure the legal download sites into offering the UK Top 40 for sale, instead of the tracks you've never heard of!.

 

I would also imagine that if it were possible for companies like Mastermix and DMC to offer their subscription and library CD's in download format, at a reduced fee, then it would probably increase their business to more than compensate for loss of CD revenue at the usual price.

[Dukesy 0]

Yep.

 

The MCPS went further and said that it is not inconceivable for a DJ to purchase a duplication license, but the costs for each individual track / record company 'license' would be so high - it would be far cheaper to buy and download the desired track.

 

I would imagine that Music Factory already have this type of licence.

 

BTW - those new types of internet music jukebox's / TnG Plasma-Video systems, etc.....license covered by the PRS.

 

 

[BigBen 0]

I know this is open to conjecture (ooooo, big word) but if we buy the compilation hit cd's such as the Now range, we're getting 40+ tracks for £15, give or take. That means the cost of each track, including all the overheads such as packaging, transport, storage, etc., would be about 35-40 pence. Which, I would imagine, is a fairer price?

 

There is an opposing view point to this - assuming half of the songs on the CD are of no use you/cack, you are still getting 20 tracks for £15 which equates to 75p a track, still, including all the overheads.

[ChrisPointon 0]

QUOTE

The MCPS went further and said that it is not inconceivable for a DJ to purchase a duplication license, but the costs for each individual track / record company 'license' would be so high

 

What would happen if a large group of DJ's were to form a 'company' and bought a licence between them in the name of this company (Just to enable them to duplicate an original CD onto PC / Laptop)?.

[DJ Marky Marc 0]

your forgetting that the people that sell the Now albums sell many tens of thousands over the years, for us as a groupe to pay the fees for each track would work out more expensive than going to hmv,

 

its all about numbers and they are the ones making the money, we as DJ's or the public pay for it

[kazzachi 0]

Good point ben!.... And... when you consider how often we use a cd... whether we use 5 or 15 tracks off it, I still consider that cds are not expensive.

[BigBen 0]

QUOTE

your forgetting that the people that sell the Now albums sell many tens of thousands over the years, for us as a groupe to pay the fees for each track would work out more expensive than going to hmv, its all about numbers and they are the ones making the money, we as DJ's or the public pay for it

 

My first thought is that if music was this cheap, then a lot more people would pay for it, so it may provide a similar profit stream for Now, etc.

 

Second point refers to the 'cack' on the Now albums. I would imagine record companies are happy to supply the Kylie tracks, etc. to Now, as long as Now include some 'lesser' artists from the same label in an attempt to promote them. If we were able to purchase just the tracks we wanted, these lesser artists may never be heard and so the label would lose future income.

 

By overcharging for downloads the record companies could be trying to protect their future investments in lesser artists? i.e. making enough money to promote them.

[Eskie 0]

Not expensive! http://www.dj-forum.co.uk/html/emoticons/wacko.gif I'd be surprised if many people on here agreed with that.

The record companies can not justify the prices they charge for CD's it is completely arbitrary. Why does the same CD vary so greatly in price from one country to another?

You often hear people expressing the line of thought that the greedy record companies have made a rod for their own backs with their exhorbitant prices, and that if they were more reasonably priced pirates would have a much harder time.

 

IF the artists & songwriters received a substantial percentage of the cost of each CD then it could be agreed that the prices were justifiable but that is far from the case!

[kazzachi 0]

heres an interesting site.... www.pro-music.org

[ChrisPointon 0]

Agree with Eskie on his point. It's unfair that the same CD should cost as much as 50% difference from country to country. Legal downloads could be accessed from anywhere in the world on a central server, without any issues with physical media costs and distribution.

 

Okay, so the purist could argue that it may effect the retail outlets, but that hasn't been a concern, and there has been no public outcry regarding farming out manufacturing and call centre work, so why should anybody have double standards with this?.

 

Now albums would be great providing that, they were released earlier, when the tracks were hits or at pre-release stage. I can't see many Dj's telling their clients that they can't play the current no1, because Now 144 hasn't yet been released http://www.dj-forum.co.uk/html/emoticons/wacko.gif . True, 'NOW' compilations are being released earlier than they used to be, but still not early enough for most Mobile DJ's and certainly not for the Club DJ.

 

'DJ IN THE MIX' comes very close to what is required, if you could get a site like that, Paid or promotional which offered general chart releases and cheese then no doubt most DJ's would be happy, i'm sure that most would be happy to pay a monthly subscription to access it as well, provided the content was current and updated. It has been done with regard to the pre-release club stuff, so why not the pre-release chart material as well? . It has to be said that several tracks, previously available through DJ In the Mix have become Top 20 hits.

[DJ Marky Marc 0]

QUOTE

If this is the case with ILLEGAL downloads I somehow doubt that DJ's will be targetted anytime soon

 

Do you want to take the risk and find out ?

 

 

the press like to make a big thing out of internet down loads, what happens when the BPI raid a file sharing person home and find out he likes to DJ ..... then finds some of that persons mates also DJ, and then they diced to just go visit random DJ's to check up......

 

all very remote chances, and the only way the problem can be solved is if we all get together and loby/campain and put presure on them to change the law together, If we break the law then they will not listen to us!

[kazzachi 0]

I believe that djs WILL and are targetted because they are playing to the public... its not very likley that they are gonna go after home-copiers. The difference is that djs are publicly working with pirated copies.

[DJ Marky Marc 0]

Or to put it another way , you are making money out of playing somthing thats not yours in the first place.

 

 

[ChrisPointon 0]

QUOTE

Or to put it another way , you are making money out of playing somthing thats not yours in the first place.

 

Uh-ho back to comparing making a back up of an original disc which has been purchased with illegal downloading of music. Some people have a fixation.

 

Once again, i'll try and make it simple. What I (and most people here) are debating is the possible legalisation of being able to make a back up copy of a physical, original CD which you have purchased in a shop.

 

I wont embarrass anybody, but at least one person who is now pushing the legality point of making original back ups just a little too much, have, themselves in the past, publically offered to do this service commercially for other members on the forum - which, I would imagine, would carry far worse penalties than an individual backing up their own material, draws me to the conclusion that the current attitude of some is just a tad hypercritical.

[DJ Marky Marc 0]

QUOTE

so if you feel you wish to 'shop' me please go ahead...

 

No one here has ever hinted at grassing people up. i think that every one on this forum is guilty of breaking this law at some point in there lives.

 

but i feel that some people are not taking this seriously, it affects us all and as such we should be working together to change things not getting upset about a few tunes we might have to leave at home while its sorted out.

 

http://www.dj-forum.co.uk/html/emoticons/wallbash.gif

 

[kazzachi 0]

HOLD UP!......The BPI will confirm that you are only meant to play the original... not a back up......... If you are talking using material legally downloaded - then that is a different matter.... but what the BPI will tell you is that making back up copies, and then playing them is not legal. You are expected to play the original.

[kazzachi 0]

... suggest you take a look at the bpi website.... I dont think this forum is the place to boast that you are going to be carrying out work illegally... how on earth are we ever going to achieve our goals and aims when there are people willing to snub their noses at the law. I would pay special attention to the mp3 information contained in the website.

 

I would be interested in how you concluded that other members of this forum are happy to do what you are doing... but just dont go on record..... ?

Edited October 20, 2004 by kazzachi

[kazzachi 0]

Yes, but there are 30 legal download sites which even the bpi recommend.. which is totally different from what you are saying you are intending to do........... unless of course I dont understand exactly what you mean.... but from what you say, you are gonna rip your cds of which you own the original - then play the ripped versions.... not from a legal download site, but from your already purchased cds... which is illegal... but then again, im most certainly not a genius.... and I doubt you would have to be a genius if the bpi ghost this site and saw what you wrote... youve openly admitted to intending to flout the law..... and I guess it wouldnt take them long to investigate you - even if they dont know where your gig is on saturday.... they could glean enough info about you from here to take you to task.

Have another look at the site...... they are very specific about mp3 and the legalities of playing them....... even from a legit site.

Edited October 20, 2004 by kazzachi

[tonyj 0]

QUOTE (DJ Marky Marc @ Oct 20 2004, 08:06 PM)

No one here has ever hinted at grassing people up. i think that every one on this forum is guilty of breaking this law at some point in there lives.

Guilty as Charged..... i confess i copied Status Quos Greatest Hits "12 Gold Bars" from my purchased copy on vinyl on to tape so i could listen to it on my walkman whilst doing my paper round back in the early 80's http://www.dj-forum.co.uk/html/emoticons/fear.gif

[Dukesy 0]

Given the above comments, I would suggest that a common sense approach to such matters, regarding the integrity and professionalism of DJ'ing is adhered to when sharing information publicly.

 

 

Our profession will from time to time encounter various and diverse opinions which we should defend the right to express, however, given the topic threads of late, a little discretion and common sense should be exercised especially when we are trying to formulate alliances with the relevant authorities and fellow professionals.

 

We should perhaps advocate the legal and professional approach to operating within the confines of law until such laws are either amended or changed.

 

In the meantime, individual opinions expressed on the forum remain the responsibility of the author and may not reflect those of the forum as a whole.

http://www.dj-forum.co.uk/html/emoticons/smile.gif