The Answer

[Gary 0]

Firstly, Welcome to DJs United Paul... http://www.dj-forum.co.uk/html//emoticons/042.gif

 

QUOTE (pdarnett @ Mar 10 2005, 03:33 PM)

new hard disc player in the UK when I would be breaking the law using its in built ripping facility?.....

 

Ah...well, you see, technically hard drive players, laptop DJing software etc arent selling you the gun, AND the bullets... just the gun.....

 

The user of such devices COULD use the software to load ONLY music tracks from unsigned bands, featuring all their own un-copyrighted works...

 

Its a bit like someone who sells a car that could be used to over the speed limit, isnt breaking the law. Its the driver of the car who decides how he/she is going to use it. Loopholes, loopholes... http://www.dj-forum.co.uk/html//emoticons/wallbash.gif

 

 

 

Anyway, the threads not over yet for the legal way of using tracks from a medium other than its original...

 

Once I've got the full written permission from the record company above to move their tracks over to a few CDR's in conjunction with an SG-6, for my DJ'ing use, I'll start back on the other record companies using the written FREE permission from the first company as leveredge.

 

We'll get this round to our piece of mind, and lets face it, to their (the record companies) benefit as soon as possible.

 

I'm typing up record label info from all my vinyl singles at the moment.

Edited March 10, 2005 by Gary

[ChrisPointon 0]

QUOTE (pareshj @ Mar 10 2005, 03:54 PM)

Is a wedding a public or private performance?

It's a private function. Unless you are planning to play at Charles and Camilla's http://www.dj-forum.co.uk/html//emoticons/tongue.gif

[YourBigEvent 0]

Already got that gig for Chas and Milly

[pdarnett 0]

Plot thickens, gary already knows this as I emailed him last night..

 

Spoke to Jon (wont do his full name but you can look it up on sony/bmg website) head of new media at SONY/BMG and he said that in their eyes it was fine to transfer any of their artists work to a ipod or software based player, providing it was a legal download or retail CD and you could do this regardless of having an SG6. They do not want lists asking for permission sending to them , they do not have the capacity to deal with it.

 

So armed with this I rang MCPS and very flustered girl insisted that you will still need an sg6. Even though the record company hold the copyright?..hmm

then an email appeared from matt philips at BPI ..this is what it sent him and his replies (in red)

 

 

Thanks for taking the time to read this, the reason I am sending this is

that we are receiveing questions daily concerning music licensing/public

performance/copyright and I am wanting to write an article clarifying

the position of the BPI/PRS/PPL on the following matters.

 

1. If I own a cd how do I stand legally if I transfer it to digital

media (i.e. ipod , hard disk etc) for public perfomance?

 

> You can't copy a CD. You buy the right to play it - not copy it.

 

2.If I purchase music online (i.e. from Itunes) can I use this music for

public performance and if so what are the legalities?

 

> Just purchasing the music (it doesn't matter where from - CD or

download) doesn't give you the right to broadcast it. For any public

performance, you need a PPL licence. I understand that this is the

responsibility of the venue; but that's for PPL to clarify.

 

3.Who polices the use of digital music and what action will be taken

against anyone breaking the license agreement/law ( so we can warn

people of the penalties and hopefully help them to do things right).

 

> The BPI has taken action against legal filesharers. Excuse the lengthy

attachment, but it should cover your queries in this area. If its for

the website you should link to our website - this pack's on the

homepage. PPL can advise on how they ensure public premises are licensed

for public performance.

 

Hopefully I can get some definative answers and post them on our site to

help people, as more and more equipment manufacturers are going down the

pc/hard disc based player route.

 

Many Thanks

 

 

 

 

So i replied back to him and have yet to get a reply...this is what I sent

 

 

Thanks for replying, the main issue that is having the most debate is

the right to transfer (note i didn't say copy) a cd to a media device.

The reason is didnt say copy is this may be covered by the temporary

copy section of the 2003 copyright act i.e. a temporary copy being

stored on a device that can be erased.

 

We're aware on all the ppl issues and licensing but this is ancilary

as most of our members are well briefed on the public performance

issues and are licensed accordingly.

 

So if you only own the right to play (not copy) a cd how come MCPS

(ppl partner) will happily sell our members an SG6 license for them to

transfer tracks from cd to mp3 or whatever for £500 a year (plus a

price per track). So I can buy a license to copy then?

 

Spoke to the director of Sony/BMG New media dept today and he told me

that anyone transfering music, either from a retail bought cd or

legally downloaded that is licensed by Sony/BMG would NOT be pursued

and in their eyes is not breaking the law if it is for personal use

only (including use by dj's for public performance).

 

To be honest , good on you for going after the filesharers, but

frankly our members are not interested in that issue. Mainly they are

more concerned about not being able to use new technology because of

all the confusion concerning rights & licenses.

 

I been in contact with many of our members about this and their main

gripe is that DJ's are an easy target to pursue, 14yr old kids with

40gb of music on their ipods will never be taken to task as its bad

for business (and bad PR). Effectively the statements i have been

receiving from yourselves & ppl that "You can't copy a CD. You buy the

right to play it - not copy it." means that anyone who has ever

transfered a track onto their ipod or mindisc or car mp3 player IS

breaking the law. So if that is the case prosecute them all, not just

the high profile ones or make the technology unable to accept tracks

from cd.

 

Sorry to rant on but I've spent over 3wks on this and read every piece

written about this and still there is no definative answer.

Edited March 11, 2005 by Gary

[Gary 0]

Paul, I of all people, know how frustrating it can be when talking to the people that we need to talk to to try and get answers - even if we dont like the answers, when we finally get them confirmed. Heck, it can even be frustrating just TRYING to talk to the people that we need to speak to... without getting hung up on, transfered round and around the building, dumped into voicemail, and never called back etc.

 

However, its crucial, at this early stage not to let that frustration become apparent in the communications sent to those who potentially could influence the outcome, either at individual record companies, MCPS, PPL or elsewhere in the industry as a whole.

 

As you've found out after your speaking to one of the organisations, and "by chance" getting an email from one of the other organisations, they do have a really good line of communication. Often, I've found that I've emailed one part of the industry, and a different part gets added to the CC list http://www.dj-forum.co.uk/html//emoticons/huh.gif However, this often works out well, as I get two replies, both CC'd to the other - making sure that all the relevant people are in agreement.

[HopDJ 0]

QUOTE (pdarnett @ Mar 11 2005, 02:51 PM)

Spoke to Jon (wont do his full name but you can look it up on sony/bmg website) head of new media at SONY/BMG and he said that in their eyes it was fine to transfer any of their artists work to a ipod or software based player, providing it was a legal download or retail CD and you could do this regardless of having an SG6. They do not want lists asking for permission sending to them , they do not have the capacity to deal with it.

Would it be possible for them to get this in writing for us. As I see it, this will mean that we'll be able to play a lot of music already, without the hassle of MCPS/PPL?

[Gary 0]

I've just spoken with Jon (thanks for half the name Paul http://www.dj-forum.co.uk/html//emoticons/thumbup.gif ).at BMG - who incidently also have copyright jurisdiction over, Arista, Columbia ,Epic ,J records,Jive ,LaFace ,Legacy Recordings, Provident, RCA, RLG, So so and of course, Sony, (11 birds with one stone) and he's asked me to email him with details of DJ "requirements" which he'll run past his legal team and will write back to me.

 

I've asked if he would allow his written reply to be featured here on DJU, which should save him 2400+ phone calls from people who want to stay 100% professional, rather than rip'n'run - fingers crossed... I've explained that it'll be of mutual benefit, as he doesnt want any more phone calls !!! (hmm sorta makes up for all the telephone "fun" http://www.dj-forum.co.uk/html//emoticons/wallbash.gif I had when trying Sony/BMG the other day.

 

Jon's advised that he is totally happy with the idea of mobile DJ's recording their vinyl to CD/ipod/laptop etc, HOWEVER, when I asked for written confirmation, he took the wise step of running things past his legal team, which he advised would probably add a delay into the reply - fair play - at least he informed me about it.

 

I've penned and sent the email to him, being sure to include that we're interested in not just MP3s but uncompressed formats too, not just CDR's but laptops/PC's as well - a fairly open request. I've also asked permission for his reply to be available here on DJU, possibly as a downloadable scan, for members wishing to keep a copy of the permission, either at home, or with their gear/music collections in the future event of possible official visits to gigs.

 

I am sure that his legal department will confirm that anyone moving copyright recordings will still require an SG-6 licence from MCPS, even with Sony/BMG's consent.

 

Email awaaaaaay! Fingers crossed.

 

[pdarnett 0]

QUOTE (Gary @ Mar 14 2005, 01:43 PM)

I've just spoken with Jon (thanks for half the name Paul http://www.dj-forum.co.uk/html//emoticons/thumbup.gif ).at BMG - who incidently also have copyright jurisdiction over, Arista, Columbia ,Epic ,J records,Jive ,LaFace ,Legacy Recordings, Provident, RCA, RLG, So so and of course, Sony, (11 birds with one stone) and he's asked me to email him with details of DJ "requirements" which he'll run past his legal team and will write back to me. I've asked if he would allow his written reply to be featured here on DJU, which should save him 2400+ phone calls from people who want to stay 100% professional, rather than rip'n'run - fingers crossed... I've explained that it'll be of mutual benefit, as he doesnt want any more phone calls !!! (hmm sorta makes up for all the telephone "fun" http://www.dj-forum.co.uk/html//emoticons/wallbash.gif I had when trying Sony/BMG the other day. Jon's advised that he is totally happy with the idea of mobile DJ's recording their vinyl to CD/ipod/laptop etc, HOWEVER, when I asked for written confirmation, he took the wise step of running things past his legal team, which he advised would probably add a delay into the reply - fair play - at least he informed me about it. I've penned and sent the email to him, being sure to include that we're interested in not just MP3s but uncompressed formats too, not just CDR's but laptops/PC's as well - a fairly open request. I've also asked permission for his reply to be available here on DJU, possibly as a downloadable scan, for members wishing to keep a copy of the permission, either at home, or with their gear/music collections in the future event of possible official visits to gigs. I am sure that his legal department will confirm that anyone moving copyright recordings will still require an SG-6 licence from MCPS, even with Sony/BMG's consent. Email awaaaaaay! Fingers crossed.

I felt like giving up on this this week, but I've had some good news, Numark UK are behind us as I spoke to them and they were having some problems with the legalities of their hdcd1, prs had told then it was fine to store tracks on it, but press play...that was a different matter, so I've sent them all the info that i had plus links to all the discussions.

Also ComputerDJ (www.computerdj.co.uk) are with us and have vowed to assist us in our quest...

 

Didnt quote Jon's full name just in case he got flooded with calls, but good work again Gary.

 

Paul Arnett

[pdarnett 0]

Did an email to ppl ages ago to clarify that if DJ's had the MCPS license would that satisfy the requirements for ppl.

 

finally got a reply from Ric Stockfis at ppl, and now I'm confused

 

Paul,

 

The licence doesn't extend to sound recordings (the rights in which we control) (it only covers the underlying musical work - controlled by MCPS/PRS) so no, it wouldn't suffice.

 

Hope that answers your query.

 

Regards

Ric

 

erm no doesn't answer my question Ric !

[Gary 0]

The two licenses are quite different.

 

Everyone needs an SG6 as soon s they want to move copyright material onto another material/format, be it a physical format, such as CD-R, Cassette tape, mini-disc, etched wax cylinder, or even cardboard hole-punch fairground organ role...

 

PPL licensing is required for non-private (normally "paying") events. You wonr normally need a ppl license for say, a familt wedding, but you'd need one for holding your own pay-on-the-door type events.

[pdarnett 0]

I know what you mean Gary, I think what Ric from ppl is saying that even if you posess an SG6 and used the media for public performance you would be in breach of the venues ppl license and they would pursue.

[The Spindoctor 0]

Phew! When I read stuff like this its good to have been away! http://www.dj-forum.co.uk/html//emoticons/sleep1.gif

 

 

[robbiedj 0]

Keep up the good work, Gary. http://www.dj-forum.co.uk/html//emoticons/notworthy.gif

 

My experience started with a phone call to MCPS, asking for the application form for my SG6 licence.

 

The reply? "SG6? What's that? Do we do them?" http://www.dj-forum.co.uk/html//emoticons/wallbash.gif

 

Having told them they did, I finally got the form, filled it in and tried to pay.

 

Now, PPL/PRS you can pay by credit card. NOT MCPS

 

They have no on-line/telephone payment service, nor do they have facilities for credit card payment. http://www.dj-forum.co.uk/html//emoticons/nono.gif

 

How can we know what to do, when they do not? http://www.dj-forum.co.uk/html//emoticons/533.gif

[jackcu 0]

I'm just a newbie here but there is more substance of interest in this thread than hundreds I've read on other sites.

 

I look forward to the definitive answer (if the various bodies concerned ever come up with one).

 

Keep up the good work.

 

Cheers,

 

Jack.

[Gary 0]

QUOTE (jackcu @ Apr 12 2005, 10:15 PM)

I'm just a newbie here but there is more substance of interest in this thread than hundreds I've read on other sites. I look forward to the definitive answer (if the various bodies concerned ever come up with one). Keep up the good work. Cheers, Jack.

Thanks...the Answer itself has already been answered, well....so long as the question was "How do I move my existing CD's, Vinyls, tapes etc onto a harddrive, or other different media, such as MP3?".

 

The answer being: "Obtain written permission from the copyright holders of the tracks, and get an SG-6 license for £500".

 

The "digging down" stage has been completed, we now know for sure how to move copyright media from one format to another physical, or electronic format - without upsetting anyone and potentially falling foul of copyright, or piracy laws.

 

The on-going research is to find out how much, if anything, record companies (the copyright holders), will charge to give that written permission for their tracks to be moved under a valid SG-6.

 

I've been told by two HUGE labels that they will offer their written permission FREE OF CHARGE, as they see our request for an "above-the-board" move of their tracks, as an indication that we want to carry on playing and promoting their artists and their artists music.

 

As soon as I get the written confirmation from the two companies in question, I'll post the details here on DJ's United, and then write to other record labels, using the first two companies free permission as an indication as to what the "going rate" for written permission is.

[Paul Forsyth 0]

http://www.dj-forum.co.uk/html//emoticons/thanks.gif

 

Hi Gary ( and others working for all)

 

Just caught up on this thread, and would liketo add my congratulations support and encouragement on the inroads made so far. As has been said, there's a long way to go, but it's quite often that all important first breakthrough, and that now seems close.

 

Once again well done, and if I can help in any way please let me know.

 

http://www.dj-forum.co.uk/html//emoticons/thanks.gif

 

Vinnie

 

[Gary 0]

If anyones got a mailing list of record companies in an emailable format, that would be a great help - it seems that there are lots of places that will SELL you a (old?) list, but I cant seem to find any long lists free, anywhere.

 

The SG6 license is a completed bit of research - it is the one, and only (no Chesney hawkes impressions please http://www.dj-forum.co.uk/html//emoticons/hide.gif ) thing that will allow you to move recordings from one medium/media to another. People dont like the £500 attached to the licence, but hey, I dont like paying for a TV licence, but I'd rather pay it than have the detector van team on the doorstep. The SG6 is a business expense, just like a pair of stylus's, spare bulbs, replacement speakers, smoke fluid, tyres, and all the rest... the difference is, you dont need to keep buying one annually for the same tracks.

 

The long-winded bit, and the only remaining hurdle is the fact that theres no central body handling the interests of the copyright holders. We've got to write to each record company - in most cases, with a list of their tunes, which we'd like to "sg-6" over to another format.

 

Clear-cut, final, but long-winded, and requiring a lot of effort on the DJ's side of things -namely dividing and listing their "to be converted" tracks into record company order. Right then...."A" is for Apple Records.... no, (flick), no, (flick), no (flick), Yes!, type-type-type, (flick), no, (flick) no............

[jackcu 0]

Thanks for the further explanation Gary.

 

In the meantime, what is everyone who uses a PC doing? Should we all stop until the record companies give their individual go-aheads, at which point we buy our SG6 and put the song lists together? Or do we carry on regardless until they sort themselves out?

 

I'd hate to have to take all my CDs along to gigs again - that's why I started using a laptop in the first place.

 

Is there any kind of interim solution that will cover us while the record companies make their minds up?

 

Cheers,

 

Jack.

[Gary 0]

QUOTE (jackcu @ Apr 13 2005, 02:43 PM)

Is there any kind of interim solution that will cover us while the record companies make their minds up?

Keeping very quite about copying files from one media to another, or making up "easier-to-carry" compilation CD-R's seems to be the only interim solution, and really, .... thats not a solution at all. There is no UK stipulation that says a person is allowed to make a backup copy of anything they own. Old wives tale - regretably.

 

One record company (mentioned above) have verbally stated that they are happy for their material to be moved from one format to another - thats nice of them, but its not 100% their call. Its a bit like wanting to park on a double yellow line outside a shop, "getting permission" from the lady who runs the shop is very nice, but the traffic warden will have other ideas.

 

This company has been written to by me, asking for their written consent of what they verbally agreed... ("Got it in writting mate?"). Fairs fair, they did warn me that getting the written consent would involve their legal department http://www.dj-forum.co.uk/html//emoticons/hiding.gif and would therefore take "some time". http://www.dj-forum.co.uk/html//emoticons/sleep1.gif

 

The other record company (which hasnt been mentioned yet) has also said verbally that they are happy for their music to be moved from one format to another - but they want individual track details eg: Artist Name, Song title etc...Im in the process of compiling that list.

 

 

 

The important things to remember about an SG-6 license is that the £500 cost is not simply for a bit of paper for a year. Each track which you move from one format to another uses up 5p from that £500 (up to a 5 minute track length) thats 20 tracks for a £1 - not bad, considering many "single artist" albums only feature about 9 or 10 tracks, so you could transfer an LP box of 50 albums (500 tracks) for about £25, or the A sides and B sides of 1000 singles for £100...and thats only a quarter of your SG-6 fee used up.

 

The other important thing to remember, is to get the record companies written permission for YOUR tracks before buying an SG-6. It'll save you time, as the 365 day clock is ticking from the day you buy the SG-6.

 

A big benefit of the SG-6 is that you do not have to continue to own the music which you copy after you've transfered the tracks. You should easily be able to recoup some, if not all of the cost of your SG-6 from ebay.

 

If you're concerned about keeping a backup, especially if selling the originals to pay off the SG-6, then theres nothing to stop you making 2 copies of everything that you transfer, but it will cost you 2 x 5p, instead of 1 x 5p per track. Fair play.

 

The only remaining "admin" of the SG-6, is that you have to submit quarterly (3 monthly) "returns" to MCPS stating the Artist and title of all tracks that you've transfered during that period - eg: 2 x Keane: This is the last time (CD single to CD-R), 2 x Lucie Silvas: Breathe in (CD-single to CD-R) etc.

 

Not ideal, but certainly workable.

Edited April 13, 2005 by Gary

[Dj_Kray 0]

wow gary great work im not sure how i feel about it all but its def something to think of

[jackcu 0]

Thanks Gary,

 

Looks like it's time to put those lists together http://www.dj-forum.co.uk/html//emoticons/sad.gif

 

I just hope the record companies know what they are being asked for when we approach them. The other thing that bugs me is that IMHO we SHOULD be buying a license to listen to / play the music REGARDLESS of the format on which it is originally purchased. I've already spent a fortune buying CDs of albums that I originally bought on vinyl - now I'm going to have to pay AGAIN to make my life a little bit easier.

 

I know it was covered somewhere, but I'm assuming we don't need this if we have bought the songs in MP3 format (from i-Tunes OD2, etc) in the first place, as we are not moving to another format?

 

One day life will be easier LOL.

 

Well done,

 

Jack.

 

PS - I just had a look at the MU thread (I'm new here so I have a lot of catching up to do). Is the implication that if the MU comes up with a DJ License, that this would take the place of the SG6 - or would we need both? If so, what is each for? Sorry for being dim, but this is more complex than I imagined http://www.dj-forum.co.uk/html//emoticons/smile.gif

Edited April 13, 2005 by jackcu

[Gary 0]

QUOTE (jackcu @ Apr 13 2005, 03:32 PM)

PS - I just had a look at the MU thread (I'm new here so I have a lot of catching up to do). Is the implication that if the MU comes up with a DJ License, that this would take the place of the SG6 - or would we need both? If so, what is each for? Sorry for being dim, but this is more complex than I imagined http://www.dj-forum.co.uk/html//emoticons/smile.gif

The first thing to do is to check the small print on the website of the Mp3 service that you're using to get the MP3's.

 

Many of them have their terms, conditions and permissions already listed - some include burning to a CD-R, some dont.

 

Where you could still run into a problem with a legal Mp3 site, is the number of burns offered with by track. For example: Woolworths Digital Music will allow (on some tracks) 1 burn to a CD, unlimited listens on the PC you downloaded the mp3 originally, and 3 syncs to an mp3 player.

 

So...if you bought say...A Keane track one week from Woolworths at 79p and burnt it to a CD-R, together with the other 39 tracks in the top 40, downloaded from Woolworths.... thats fine. However, you cant then make up a "Background buffet music" CD, featuring the same Keane song, as you've already "used-up" your 1 burn, which was included in your mp3 legal purchase. Theres nothing to stop you using an mp3 player for the buffet though .... Woolies allowed 3 syncs to an mp3 device, as well as 1 CD burn. However, even on Woolies, each track can have slightly different options...so its worth checking. A Lucie Silvas track I downloaded from Woolies had ZERO burn rights... luckily its on the lastest Now album.

 

 

[jackcu 0]

Thanks again Gary,

 

I take your point - I'll check the individual sites. However, as I'm playing the MP3 from the same laptop that I used to legally buy and download it, I would hope that I'm OK, as I haven't "burned" it at all - no media or machine transfer whatsoever.

 

Nothing is ever simple http://www.dj-forum.co.uk/html//emoticons/smile.gif

 

Cheers,

 

Jack.

[Corabar Steve 0]

Sorry if I missed something here, but does this then mean that PPL / PRS would then consider these as legitimate copies?

[Gary 0]

QUOTE (Corabar Steve @ Apr 15 2005, 08:31 AM)

Sorry if I missed something here, but does this then mean that PPL / PRS would then consider these as legitimate copies?

MCPS would probably say that theres no such thing as a legimate copy - http://www.dj-forum.co.uk/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif But I know what you're saying, and the answer is a definate YES !!!!

 

As part of the SG6 license you have to submit a quarterly activity list of tracks which you've moved from one format to another...its a straightforward list of Artist, Title, record label name eg: Arista, CBS, Parlophone etc, and Track running time. As described earlier, the running time only becomes important if its over 5 minutes as any tracks lasting upto five minutes are basically 10p each (taken from your original £500 SG6 "float") tracks longer than 5 mins are charged at an additional 2 pence per minute (or part thereof) thereafter for any work exceeding five minutes (capped at 25 minutes so there is a maximum fee payable of 50p per work). (you can tell that I cut'n'pasted that last bit, cant you... http://www.dj-forum.co.uk/html//emoticons/rolleyes.gif )

 

PRS/PPL etc, would see your CD-Rs as legitimate CD's, so long as only the tracks itemised in your SG6 returns, featured on the discs.

 

The SG-6 licence also covers copying/ripping of Karaoke and even MIDI tracks, but slightly higher rates apply: eg:

 

Karaoke tracks with still images and lyrics @ 12p

Karaoke tracks with moving images and lyrics @ 13p

MIDI files @ 15p

 

(hmmm wonder if theres a surcharge for long Karaoke tracks eg: The full version of Don Mcleans: American Pie http://www.dj-forum.co.uk/html//emoticons/huh.gif )

 

Venue managers under threat of having their music licence revoked for allowing copied/ripped tracks to be played within their venue, would also be able to breathe easy, with your SG-6 compliant CD's.

 

Of course, if you started trying to sell the legitimate CD's, eg: " Corabar Steves Top 20 Party Classics" at the end of each disco, then your chances of getting the record companies to give you permission to move the tracks from their original format under an SG6 in the first place, would most likely be hampered; or at least get very expensive - During my phone arounds of the record companies, Sony originally quoted me a flat rate of £1000 per track until I pointed out that the resulting ONE track would be for my own convenience of use only, not for direct commercial gain.

 

 

Edited April 15, 2005 by Gary