Why do we think that the crowd want it LOUD?

[Award Entertainment 0]

Recently someone posted this comment and it got me thinking:

QUOTE

Quality music can be loud , bad quality is what they complain about, speakers that distort are what the average punter will call too loud. If you take a sound meter onto the dance floor with my rig you will find its loud but the public dont think its too loud. Run a crap system at a lower db and they complain its too loud.

I have been entertaining for 18 years and I spend a period working in a top-end HiFi retail shop selling brands like Linn, Mission, Denon, Nakamichi, Bose and Loewe. During that time I've developed a love of high-fidelity, detailed and textured sound. I also have an understanding of the short-term and long-term effects of hearing damage both to the DJ and to his crowd. My rule of thumb at an event is that if the seated guests have to raise their voices or tip their heads together to converse, then I'm too loud and I'll fix the problem. I seldom get asked to turn it up. My questions are these:

 

Have we conditioned our crowds (particularly the 15 to 30's) to expect us to deliver high volumes at our events?

 

What damage are we doing to our own hearing long term?

 

What damage are we inflicting on our audiences?

 

Why do we still play loud, even when we know that high volume exhausts people faster and subconsciously wears them down?

 

Your thoughts please....

[Digital discos 0]

Good quality music won't sound loud, it's just a good quality loud system is when people feel the music, and get into it more, thus enjoying it more.

 

Maybe for older clientelle, I won't take 2 mackie subs, because older people are less receptive to high frequencies.

 

I always get good comemnts on my sound system...why change?

[Steve_Mitchell 0]

Perhaps because we are stood behind the rig we don`t realise how loud it actually is?

 

Ste

http://www.dj-forum.co.uk/html//emoticons/thumbup.gif

[Danno13 0]

I think if people didn't want loud music they wouldn't go to a disco... of course it has to be pleasant to listen to but surely having loud music is part of the whole experience to the punter...

 

And also...

 

QUOTE

working in a top-end HiFi retail shop selling brands like Linn, Mission, Denon, Nakamichi, Bose and Loewe

 

I personally wouldn't regard these makes as "top-end HiFi" although of course i don't know how it is in NZ.

 

 

[DJ Marky Marc 0]

people are always asking for the music to be turned up..

 

i keep things to what the majority feel is an exceptable level

 

but personaly i feel that most discos offer poor sound.

 

 

[DJ SPARKO 0]

QUOTE

Perhaps because we are stood behind the rig we don`t realise how loud it actually is?

 

i agree to some extent as i usually check from time to time to sound coming from the speaker from the audience end and even on toilet/bar travels i observe the sound from where i am posistioned ( BEFORE AND DURING) the night at i.e. the door to the function or bar/opposie end and areas of the function room to determine the sound level.

 

QUOTE

people are always asking for the music to be turned up.. i keep things to what the majority feel is an exceptable level

 

i also agree as i also always get asked to crank it up, although as i feel i am hired to please as many of the guests and mainly the clients i will dertermine an acceptable level depending on the crowd and client etc http://www.dj-forum.co.uk/html//emoticons/smile.gif

[Hugmaster 0]

Hi

 

I think the comment regarding people wouldn't go to a disco if they didn't want it loud is a little misleading...

 

With private functions, most of the people are there for their family and friends and not necessarily to dance. having music overly loud and/or at a poor quality will send them home with a headache and a reinforced perception of how DJ's are only there to satisfy their egos.

 

I agree that poor quality sound will also be misinterpreted as too loud and that if you have a good understanding of how to get a fantastic sound, you can up the volumes levels more when necessary.

 

If I'm in a hall, and I know we've all been there, that no matter how you twiddle and tweek your nobs, it just sounds bloody awful, I keep the volume as low as I can reasonbly get away with.

 

If you're behind your decks and the punter or you are having to scream at each other, you're too loud.

 

Darren

[Award Entertainment 0]

QUOTE (Digital discos @ Jun 23 2005, 11:03 AM)

Good quality music won't sound loud, it's just a good quality loud system is when people feel the music, and get into it more, thus enjoying it more.

Good quality quieter music doesn't sound loud either, but I can assure you it has the same effect as louder music on the dance floor. For a wedding of (say) 120 guests, I'll use just a pair of Mackie SRM450s and I'll run them at 75% volume at the absolute most. Even that's too loud really, because I can get exactly the same degree of crowd enjoyment and involvement at a much lower level. i'm as guilty as the next DJ at playing a little too loud, but I think I'm learning that it's not necessary.

 

QUOTE (Danno13)

if people didn't want loud music they wouldn't go to a disco

So what about weddings? People don't just go to those for the DJ. We just facillitate the entertainment and party component of the celebration. You don't consider Linn or Nakamichi top-end HiFi? Really?

 

QUOTE (DJ Marky Marc)

people are always asking for the music to be turned up..

What age are these people? I bet I know. Again I ask "Have we conditioned our crowds (particularly the 15 to 30's) to expect us to deliver high volumes at our events?" By 'we' I mean all entertainers, bands and singers also.

 

QUOTE (DJ Marky Marc)

personaly i feel that most discos offer poor sound.

I agree 100% with this comment. I have heard very few PA speaker systems that sound anywhere near as nice as a decent middle-of-the-range home stereo and I assure you that I've heard and used a heck of a lot of systems since starting as a DJ in 1987!

[ChrisPointon 0]

QUOTE

With private functions, most of the people are there for their family and friends and not necessarily to dance. having music overly loud and/or at a poor quality will send them home with a headache and a reinforced perception of how DJ's are only there to satisfy their egos.

 

Well Said

 

Thats where the difference between people going to a disco at the local Student Union / Pub / Club differs from people being invited to so and so's birthday.

 

I've yet to see an invitation which says 'Mildred would like to invite you to Bingham Village Hall to Joe Bloggs' disco and partake in discussion about Joe's Lights and Sound, Oh, and it's her 50th Birthday as well'

 

If you were going to a local pub and paying £2.00 to dance until 2AM then you are going for a night out, people who don't like Discos or loud music wouldn't pay £2.00 to sit there miserable and hating every minute http://www.dj-forum.co.uk/html//emoticons/smile.gif . However they may feel obligated to go to Mildred's function because it's her 50th Birthday and they've been sent an invitation, at such events you'll get guests who can't stand discos and some who don't really like 'Mildred' - a great combination of attitude for you to entertain http://www.dj-forum.co.uk/html//emoticons/tongue.gif .

 

I agree that a sound system which sounds crap isn't going to win you much business, but then again blasting everybody into the car park isn't either. At any private function your music should be loud enough on the dancefloor to create a positive vibe but ambient at the back of the room so people can hear how much the bar are stinging them for drinks, and old friends can catch up on gossip without yelling at each other over the table. Oh, and bar optics are there to serve drink measures and not to rattle off their mountings! http://www.dj-forum.co.uk/html//emoticons/tongue.gif.

 

However, wherever you are in the room, the sound should be clear and not distorted, as should the mic.

 

For private functions, quality and not quantity is perhaps the key. Even if you have a powerful sound system, it doesn't mean that those 75 people in the room need the full 5kw. After all, if you drive a Fast Car it doesn't mean that you 'll be driving at 130mph everywhere because doing so is likely to get you noticed for the wrong reason. The Same can apply to Sound, it just means that there is power in reserve for the times that you need it.

 

QUOTE

have heard very few PA speaker systems that sound anywhere near as nice as a decent middle-of-the-range home stereo and I assure you that I've heard and used a heck of a lot of systems since starting as a DJ in 1987!

 

Sure, but in a home environment the acoustics are far different, as is the space you are filling. At a venue there are likely to be higher ceilings, fewer carpeted surfaces, more ambient noise and materials used in the construction of large venues (Metal Girders etc) which you wouldn't find at home either. These all play a part in how your sound is heard once it leaves those high quality speakers and goes bouncing around all of those acoustically reflective surfaces before hitting somebody's ear. Take your $10,000 hi-fi system to a gig to see my point. Oh and at home you don't usually have 500 punters chatting....unless you go to one of Andy's Houseparties at ADS' Mansions.

 

If you have a fairly good, reasonably powerful sound system and run it at 40% of it's rated power then it can sound very good, even in a fairly large venue. The problems begin where you have a 300W Sound System trying to fill a room with 500 people, or equally an inexperienced DJ behind a 10kw system who thinks that 'Peak' means 'On' http://www.dj-forum.co.uk/html//emoticons/whistling.gif

[YourBigEvent 0]

I'd even have to go to Mildred's 50th and I don't like discos http://www.dj-forum.co.uk/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif

[ChrisPointon 0]

QUOTE (ADS Entertainments @ Jun 23 2005, 08:25 AM)

I'd even have to go to Mildred's 50th and I don't like discos http://www.dj-forum.co.uk/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif

Well, Tough!. Because you aren't invited http://www.dj-forum.co.uk/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif

[YourBigEvent 0]

Good, wasn't looking forward to having to be nice to you AGAIN http://www.dj-forum.co.uk/html//emoticons/tongue.gif

[ChrisPointon 0]

QUOTE (ADS Entertainments @ Jun 23 2005, 08:36 AM)

Good, wasn't looking forward to having to be nice to you AGAIN http://www.dj-forum.co.uk/html//emoticons/tongue.gif

You wern't nice to me the first time http://www.dj-forum.co.uk/html//emoticons/014.gif , and I had to wait 3 hours before you got the drinks in http://www.dj-forum.co.uk/html//emoticons/beer.gif

[YourBigEvent 0]

And never returned the gesture ! http://www.dj-forum.co.uk/html//emoticons/whistling.gif

[Award Entertainment 0]

I agree with what you're saying Chris. I really wonder how much we as entertainers have caused this perceived expectation (mainly from younger punters) to TURN IT UP, DUDE! I suspect we're completely at fault. My hearing is just too precious to risk and I'm pleased I learned that before it was too late.

[John Kidd 0]

Is Volume also Music related.

 

A nice bit if Swing Music, doesn't need to be loud, and people will dance.

 

Bon Jovi, Living on a Prayer, Needs to be pump up to give it a good Kick.

 

Volume for me is constantly changing depending on the type and style of music i'm playing, and also the crowd that i'm playing to.

 

The Crowd bit. Over the course of a Wedding, you could be playing to many different crowds in one night, as the music changes through 60s - 90s, their is a adjustment needed to keep it right. Soft changes in volume could keep uncle Sid dancing for longer.

 

[DJ Marky Marc 0]

Scale, Dynamics, pressence, swings, all words you would hear working in a hifi shop with nice kit..

 

If you want to hear those words to discribe a mobile disco sound system for 100+ people and not the words , too loud , my ears hurt, Its given me a headace, then not only will you need a well planed very powerfull very high quality rig, but you will have to use your own ears and get out on the dance floor and listen....

 

 

Volume control is what its all about...

 

small system working too hard will be perceved as too loud

 

large high quality system working not so hard is what people realy need..

 

 

If you system has the headroom to cope with the styles of music that have extended bass lines or extra powerfull rock Guitar solos, you have nothing to worrie about. and you wont be doing damage to your ears as you find in normal use that you dont need to "TURN IT UP" as requested buy joe public...

 

small systems get over worked trying to make up these bass lines and then end up sounding rubbish

 

I dont think we have brain washed the under 40's into thinking it should be loud.

 

I think the music styles dictate this.

 

When I listen to radio 2 I dont have it loud, friday night radio one gets turned up.... the only real diference being the type of music played...

 

if all I listened to was Radio 2 then there would have been no point in me fitting a large Sub bass box in the boot of the car....

 

 

[jackcu 0]

Interesting thread - I've never been asked to turn it up - I have been asked to turn it down (at birthday parties). I'm obviously as guilty as anyone in equating volume with "danceability".

 

I'll turn it down on Saturday and see if anyone notices.

 

Cheers,

 

Jack.

[BigBen 0]

I attended two ball's as a guest last year. Thanks to the sound limiter at Wrenbury Hall I could talk to the person I was dancing with. I hated it.

 

The Christmas Ball was in an amazing marquee at Tatton Park, I believe there were 1000 people in attendance. I was dressed the same, dancing and listening to the same music, with the same group of people as the previous ball, yet at this one, I couldn't hear myself singing along with the songs...guess which event I enjoyed the most?

 

It's the old "dance like no-one can see you and sing like you're in the shower". If you want to have a real good time you need to be almost annonymous (or drunk). Dark dance floors with loud music achieve this annonymity, which is why I think people prefer/assume the music to be loud (although NOT distorted!).

[Kingy 0]

I am proud of my sound.

 

I like the way that I am able to listen to individual pieces within the music. Most gigs get covered using a HK ELIAS sysyem. This is 2 powered bass bins (1x15") and a pair of sattelites (1x10 + horn) seperated by a pole. These units simply never distort, even when I have to drive them. If I thought I needed more I would either take another pair (i have two sets) or take my ACTOR system or any combination of the above.

 

What I have noticed when working in venues with other Djs is that if they have low spec equipment they try to play loud and the simple truth is that the cheaper kit does not cut the mustard. Sorry if it upsets anyone with Soundlab etc, but playing it at high levels will sound thin. I can buy some of these manufacturers 12" drivers for £15 and the tweeters for as little as 99pence trade!! They are only suitable to play at low / intermediate levels. During my time in retail I must have sold between 250/300 pairs of speakers of varying efficiency, so I do have an insite.

 

Then if i work along side other experienced guys who have invested in their kit and use decent stuff ( not necessarily branded, I have heard excellent custom stuff) you notice that the amps are not peaking and everything sounds fuller.

 

One trick I often do is to have my speakers very slightly behind the level of my console. This enables me to monitor the sound rather than keep walking round the venue. It also helps if you get an echo problem as you cant hear it quite as much.

 

Sound is a very personal thing. I have owned Peavey, JBL, Gauss, Cerwin Vega, RCF/Mackie,Yamaha but find that I like the "BigHi-Fi" sound of the HK stuff, it really is a warm sound. Frank Sinatra style stuff sounds fantastic, as do really well produced tracks (george Micheal springs to mind).

 

I have recently had two occasions where I have used some plastic cabs ( I have a pair of Alto 12" cabs and a pair of Yamahas which I usually use for monitors on the PA gigs) and have had no problems with these at venues holding up to 100 people. Having said that, they work out at about the £600 ish mark, so for that price they should be reasonable. I rmrmber trying a pair of Geminis one night, big mistake!

 

I agree that its better to be asked to turn it up 6 times than to turn it down once.

[Award Entertainment 0]

QUOTE (Kingy @ Jun 23 2005, 10:16 PM)

its better to be asked to turn it up 6 times than to turn it down once.

What a great comment. Thanks Kingy.

[Cheezy 0]

Interesting reading.

 

I do know my hearing is not as good as it once was, but could be getting older???

 

A while back I was contemplating upgrading my amp. Over the last 18mths I've realised 0.5Kw for most venues is more than enough. OK so you will never please a bunch of pi$$ed up rugby players at an end of season party but eh?

 

Adding a pair of Celeston Subs has really made the sound much fuller, and able to have more bass grunt without having to increase the mid and treble.

 

Infact I have been congratulated on the fact that people could hold a conversation.

 

Cheezy

[PrimeLoops 0]

I actually have had Tinnitus for the last 7 years lol no joke!