ELC 24V 250W lamps

[Andy Westcott 0]

OK guys, is there an alternative to the 'life=50 hours' jobbie?

 

I am proud to still be running a pair of Martin Destroyers, but the recommended lamps have an estimated life of 50 hours, and in practice seems to be rather less than this.

 

There is an alternative 'long life' lamp available which requires the fitting of an aluminium reflector, but is there a longer life version of the standard combined glass-reflector lamp? I'd be happy with a lower wattage one too - 150 watts would still be OK, if available with a decent life expectancy.

 

OK, if I have to fit the reflector conversion and a different lamp, anyone got a good price for these?

 

Thankyou. http://www.dj-forum.co.uk/html//emoticons/smile.gif

[ChrisPointon 0]

The 50 hours version is the standard A1-259 lamps also known as the ELC

 

There are longer life versions available, namely

 

ELC-3 = 300 hour

ELC-5 = 500 hour

ELC-7 = 700 hour

 

There is also a 1000 hour version available, but it comes with a price tag which will put you into shock over Xmas!

 

There is a small decrease in light output when using longer life bulbs, which makes using them in effects which already under-run the standard ELC lamp to extend the life of them undesirable so if your lighting effect already advertises as having a lamp life extender designed in then better to stick with the standard 50 hour ELC.

 

Decent lamp brands include Philips and GE, and many people will warn against using 'unbranded' white box OEM lamps from the far east, however i've been using OEM ELC-3 lamps for nearly two years and have no complaints.

 

Here are some links....

 

Unbranded ELC-3 @£4.50

 

Branded ELC-5 Lamps @ £9.99

 

Loads of Lamps

[Andy Westcott 0]

Thanks for clarifying that one, Chris.

My last enquiries led me to believe that the long-life lamps needed a reflector conversion, that was obviously just a sales ploy.

 

I'm happy with a slightly reduced light output, as the Destroyers are used to decorate the ceiling/rear walls of relatively small venues, and do actually tend to over-illuminate the place anyhow.

 

I think I might risk a tenner or four on some 500 hour lamps, and see what happens. http://www.dj-forum.co.uk/html//emoticons/smile.gif

[ChrisPointon 0]

Most DJ's are happy with a slightly reduced output in return for a 10 times lamp life increase, and I doubt that our clients would mind or care either way http://www.dj-forum.co.uk/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif . A lot of effects manufacturers such as Chauvet are already fitting ELC-3's as standard from the factory, so in modern effects, it's safe to say that in newer effects the optics have already factored in the slight reduction of light output.

 

As I mentioned before, i've used the ELC-3's in older effects such as the Datamoon (running with the switchable lamp extender OFF) and some of the older constella effects for the last few years with no problem at all.

[transeurope 0]

If you can manage the jump in price, I can thoroughly recommend the Philips long life Broadway lamps made in Japan that come in red cartons.

 

They have ultra-superior life and superior optics also. This is something not often discussed in speaking about lamps, but they too have lenses and reflectors and imperfections in them don't help the accuracy of the light. Garbage In, Garbage Out.

 

The person babbling on about reflector conversions was probably not lying, just pretending that he was an expert as retailers often do. If you have PAR series bulbs, like PAR56s, the bulb consists of a sealed beam with inbuilt reflector.

 

It is possible to install a reflector/bulbhold assembly in your can and then put a small little halogen inside and achieve somewhat similar results.

 

The advantage is that it is easier to carrier the little halogen capsule bulb around as a spare than the massive PAR series bulbs, also, the capsule bulbs are cheaper (although they don't last as long, you still come out ahead) and being smaller, they cool down faster, making the lights easier to move around.

[Andy Westcott 0]

Regarding the reflector conversion, Martin made mention of this on their site, and sell the conversion kit, so I suppose it wasn't bad advice.

 

What the dealer omitted to tell me was that there were long life bulbs of the A1-259 type available with the integral glass reflector.

 

Perhaps he really didn't know, I didn't.... But I do now! http://www.dj-forum.co.uk/html//emoticons/smile.gif

[superstardeejay 0]

Lamp life should have a discussion group all of its own!! The same lamps will last different times depending very much on the effect they're put into, particularly with the larger halogen wattages. Some manufacturers of luminaires will purposely under-run the filaments by a volt or so, this magically increases lamp life..but many don't bother.

 

As an example, I know of several DJs who run their NJD Datamoons and Predator HX's on their original lamps, having had them years!! Some of the older Martin stuff eg Roboscan 1004, Robozap etc have dissapointingly short lamp life, eg 5-10 hours!

 

I once had to pay a service call to a venue whose Datamoons had, after a couple of years of excellent service, started blowing lamps at a rate of a set a week. (they had 4 or 6 I think.) It turned out that the venue, in the middle of town, had a slightly high mains voltage at night, (around 255V). They'd happily being running on the lamp-economy setting for 2 years, probably supplying the lamp with around 22-23V, but someone had been in to clean them and accidentally knocked the rockers over to full power....that was the problem! When I put the switch back, they worked great again! The owner told me his festoon lamps wrapped around his ornamental conifers were also prone to lamp blowing at night, but I declined to get involved...

 

There are other factors, EVL Spins have electronic lamp controllers with soft-start for their ELC A1-259 lamps, this helps! Later Robozaps had filament pre-heaters as well.

 

Make sure your fittings are kept clean, don't be tempted to change a duff fan for a cheaper one (many lights have special high-flow fans which look just like any other) and inspect the blown bulbs for signs of burning around the pins because the lamp-holders often arc (and not just old ones) which will shorten the lamp life. And dont touch the capsule with your fingers, it could make them fracture in time!

 

Consult your owners manual with regard to 'burning position' since some lights are only designed to be mounted a certain way, this is because of airflow, ventilation, heat convection, and lamp manufacturer's demands.

 

Some luminaires of course are just shoddily designed and will pop your lamps gleefully no matter how much you spend on the things.

 

A local dealer once told me that he would only fit these cheapo-halogens to equipment he was going to flog on ebay....make of that what you will.

 

 

[transeurope 0]

Andy, any chance of a link to this reflector conversion?

 

I am confused and can't find it on their website.

 

It would appear to me to be a very retrograde conversion if my understanding of what you are saying is correct.

 

Thanks.

[Andy Westcott 0]

Transeurope, I'll have a look for the web page concerned, but it was a year or so ago I saw that information.

 

Superstardeejay, thanks for the inforative post. My Martin Destroyers do output about 22 Volts to the lamps, so in theory are under-run, but still exhibit a lamp life of just 2 - 4 gigs. The fans are fine, and I regularly clean them.

 

Examining the blown lamps in detail, I was confused as to the failure mode, as the quartz envelope was clean and clear, and the filament seemed to be intact, with no tendency to vibrate when flicked which would have suggested a break at one end. In fact, the lamp looked like new.....

 

The blown lamps tested open circuit, and out of curiosity I applied a few thousand volts across them - from the HT transformer from a fly killer in case you're wondering - to see if I could observe the location of the break by virtue of the arcing, but the filament proved to be intact, suggesting the fault was with one of the lead-out wires.

 

Just what could cause this part to fail is a mystery to me. http://www.dj-forum.co.uk/html//emoticons/sad.gif

 

EDIT:

Transeurope, a bit about the modification kit is here:

http://www.martin.com/service/showpage.asp...4&tit=Destroyer

[transeurope 0]

The fusion of the ceramic to the bipin leg is a known tricky thing for manufacturers.

 

Often the seal is not gas tight and the gas inserted into the capsule fails.

 

This causes the whole filament to burn out instantaenously.

 

It does not sound like that is what happened to your lamp cos there is no burn mark, but it would be interesting to know if anyone can explain it.

 

Edit Unless my understanding of how lights work is completely wrong, changing an ELC fitting to an M33 capsule lamp is a complete disaster. It would make the fitting substantially less bright than using a high quality branded ELC such as the Broadway. It may 20% less bright than something like a GE or Chinese bulb, but if you buy a properly crafted lamp you can get very long life, very true colours and very bright output.

 

I am completely baffled as to why anyone would want to do such a conversion.

 

Can anyone explain this to me?

[Andy Westcott 0]

Yep, it's difficult to explain the failure, but I had three fail in this manner, two of which are still here if any tech-heads are sufficiently tenacious to examine the darned things. http://www.dj-forum.co.uk/html//emoticons/tongue.gif

 

Normally on a well-worn halogen lamp of this sort you can see some slight pitting of the filament, but the surfaces on both these are completely smooth.

 

One idea I had was that the continual heating and cooling - expanding and contraction - had caused one of the lead-outs to break, but if that was the case with three of mine, they'd all be doing it surely?

 

I'm looking at the lamps now:

One is marked 'XENOPHOT' and has the filament coiled axially, upright if you like.

The other is marked simply 'USA 11' and has the filament lengthwise, in the more usual manner.

 

Two totally different lamps then, but both failed in the same manner.

 

Confused. http://www.dj-forum.co.uk/html//emoticons/rolleyes.gif

[High Fidelity 0]

I too have had at least two lamps fail showing no sign of the filament having failed, or any marking on the lead outs indicating arcing, but they still read open circuit. http://www.dj-forum.co.uk/html//emoticons/533.gif Put new lamps in and they work fine.

[norty303 0]

I'd recommend the conversion kit. They were standard after a while anyway. It then takes the M33 lamp which is a load cheaper too. You get about 20% less output from them but it's not that noticeable.

 

The M33 is also used in the Opti Solar250's and they're good and bright. I suppose the only way you could tell would be to do one and compare with an ELC

[chrismk 0]

I think we'll also find the voltage here in the UK to be spot on 240 volts, ok so were talking 24 vlt lamps but I do know with certain products that say they are multi voltage but they still tend to blow a fuse now and then, Im not 100% sure but I think the UK is now the only country running 240 volts where as everywhere else is 220 volts, just a thought cos I've never seen light bulbs blow as often as they do here in the UK and Im talking home light fittings...

[Andy Westcott 0]

It's true what you say about domestic bulbs blowing. Ours rarely last 6 months, and that is with nomal 'evening only' use.

 

Could well be the 240 volts available. Specifications have been standardised to 230 volts plus/minus what? 5%?, but the voltage often measures quite a bit above this.

 

I suppose it would be possible to fit a 0.22 ohm high wattage resistor in series with the ELC bulb to drop the voltage by 2 - 3 volts....... What's that then - a 50 watt rating would suffice I suppose.

 

Norty303, thanks for your recommendation to go for the conversion. How do you think the aluminium reflector would fare with the combined effects of smoke, dust and heat over time? Would it lose its reflectivity and what would it be like to clean?

 

This is the beauty of the dichroic reflectors of the ELC bulbs, easy to clean if necessary.

[norty303 0]

The reflector is actually coated so reflectivity is good. It's only held in place by 3 rivets so technically you could get a glass cutter and cut the lamp bit off an ELC lamp and mount that reflector part instead so the M33 goes down the middle of it.

 

As with any lights, cleaning the optics regularly is useful

[superstardeejay 0]

Regarding ELC lamps that fail but are not visibly 'open', there is usually a weak spot in the 'pinch', consisting of foil connecting leads to the pins. These are designed to rupture if the lamp takes too much current, it's designed to stop the bulb from exploding. A dodgy lampholder or overheating lamp can cause this fault too.

 

Modifying a fitting from a dichroic to a home-made capsule sounds dodgy to me unless officially manufacturer sanctioned, since part of the idea of a dichroic reflector is to manage the heat emission, reflecting and converting the different wavelengths so the fitting runs cooler. I've just serviced an NJD Chaos 2000 flower effect (250W ELC A1-259). The owner had fitted the lamp slightly crookedly so it shone slightly to one side of the gobo wheel, it eventually burned a hole through the gobo motor!!!!

 

Xenophot lamps are made by Osram, (german brand) and USA series are GE (General Electric Lamps, formerly known as Tungsram).

 

 

[norty303 0]

QUOTE

Modifying a fitting from a dichroic to a home-made capsule sounds dodgy to me unless officially manufacturer sanctioned,

 

It's a standard conversion, supplied by Martin using a metal coated reflector dish which has an M33 sitting in the middle at exactly the same point as the ELC. This is how the later Destroyers/Punishers were supplied as standard.

 

I was simply stating that if someone was so equipped, they could chop the rear off an ELC lamp and use the reflector in place of the metal dish for slightly better optics. Probably handle the heat better too but the Martins have good fans anyway

[superstardeejay 0]

Yes! I know, but that's for fittings for which Martin have engineered the modification. I just had visions of people eager to convert their Datamoons, Chauvets, Acme's to run on cheap M33 lamps, with possibly molten results!!!

[norty303 0]

Sorry, i'd assumed we were referring to destroyers/Punishers throughout.

 

 

[Andy Westcott 0]

Thanks Superstar, the 'pinch' as you refer to it is certainly where the lamps have failed; I still think it odd that two different manufacturers can supply lamps which fail in the same way.

 

Anyhow, I now have to make up my mind as to whether I buy the supposed 500 hour ELC lamps, or do the Martin conversion........

 

Decisions, decisions.

 

Has anyone done this conversion, and wish to comment on the outcome?

[superstardeejay 0]

Are you absolutely certain the lampholders are honky-dory? Might be worth changing them as a precaution, they're only cheap. Sometimes even new ones go wonky.

 

 

[norty303 0]

Given the price between the long life ELC and the M33 I'd do the conversion.

 

Read my posts, all my Destroyers/Punishers are using the conversion. No problem, plenty of light still. What more do you want to know, there's not much more to say really.

[superstardeejay 0]

PS, I forgot to mention, I purchased a new table lamp from B&Q the other day, it has a capsule lamp similar to the M33-style, it was against my better judgment but it was very pretty.

 

A few days into it's use, I was upstairs, the lamp was on and I heard an almighty BANG from the lounge! (bit like a 12-bore) I rushed down to find bits of the bulb over the mantlepiece and sofa! I was shaking, I thought someone had put a firework through the letterbox or something, it was THAT LOUD.

 

I went to B&Q and bought a twin pack of GE replacement bulbs, put the first one in and it lasted about 30 secs! So, I put the second one in, backed away and watched, it lasted 2 mins!

 

Perturbed, I returned to B&Q with the 'bodies' of the lamps and they gave me two new ones (identical to the last). I put the first one in and it's still working tonight, 1 week later!! Must have been a faulty batch......?????

 

And yes of course I checked the lampholder which was great.

 

 

 

 

[Andy Westcott 0]

Norty303, I suppose I'm worried about the reflectors corroding slightly and losing efficiency, but as you have had no problems, and it is a recommended upgrade anyhow, I think I'll go for the conversion.

 

Many thanks all for your contributions. http://www.dj-forum.co.uk/html//emoticons/smile.gif