MadGutts 0 Posted January 11, 2005 Report Share Posted January 11, 2005 I need some speakers reconed. I am not sure how easy it is, if there is any special equipment required etc. I can get the kits to recone the speakers, but is it one of those jobs best left to the professionals? Any info would be helpfull.. Thanks The only UK number 1 record to contain in its lyrics the title of the song which knocked it off number 1 was... Bohemian Rhapsody by Queen (lyric: "Mamma Mia")! The Forums Computer Nutter and expert! Discos, Lighting and Sound Reinforcement in and around Oxfordshire, Wiltshire, Gloustershire and Buckinghamshire etc... Special FX Entertainment Services Link to post Share on other sites
Paul Smith 0 Posted January 11, 2005 Report Share Posted January 11, 2005 I think re-coning speakers has gone the same way as putting new elements in kettles and irons, oh and lazers in DVD players. The cost and hassle, compared to buying complete new speakers makes it un-economical. PaulS Link to post Share on other sites
+Scooby+ 0 Posted January 11, 2005 Report Share Posted January 11, 2005 I agree with 5Star ... Too much agro .. Im sure Chris could do you a good deal on some new drivers. Cheap as chips http://www.dj-forum.co.uk/html/emoticons/wacko.gif Link to post Share on other sites
brianmole 0 Posted January 11, 2005 Report Share Posted January 11, 2005 Agree, I was quoted the same to recone an Eminence Kappa 15" I blew as the replacement cost. The recone will never be as good as a factoy made new unit. Link to post Share on other sites
MadGutts 0 Posted January 11, 2005 Author Report Share Posted January 11, 2005 QUOTE I was quoted the same to recone an Eminence Kappa 15" I blew That is because only the PRO range of Eminence have a kit. The speakers i use are the Delta Pro 12's which are around the £90 mark new, but a recone kit from eminence is £40! less than half the price. The pro baskets are designed to be reconed, which is why i need to know if i should send the baskets to eminence, or just order up the kits. EDIT: Oh by the way... i have 6 i need reconing !!! so buying new drivers is not really an option !!! http://www.dj-forum.co.uk/html/emoticons/014.gif The only UK number 1 record to contain in its lyrics the title of the song which knocked it off number 1 was... Bohemian Rhapsody by Queen (lyric: "Mamma Mia")! The Forums Computer Nutter and expert! Discos, Lighting and Sound Reinforcement in and around Oxfordshire, Wiltshire, Gloustershire and Buckinghamshire etc... Special FX Entertainment Services Link to post Share on other sites
brianmole 0 Posted January 11, 2005 Report Share Posted January 11, 2005 QUOTE That is because only the PRO range of Eminence have a kit. My chappie said that the recone kits existed and were cheaper individually, but they were only available in a pack of 5 , and I only needed 1, hence my comment. QUOTE i have 6 i need reconing !!! http://www.dj-forum.co.uk/html/emoticons/fear.gif Ooops Link to post Share on other sites
MadGutts 0 Posted January 17, 2005 Author Report Share Posted January 17, 2005 QUOTE QUOTE i have 6 i need reconing !!! http://www.dj-forum.co.uk/html/emoticons/fear.gif Ooops Indeed... But the customer is paying !!! http://www.dj-forum.co.uk/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif The only UK number 1 record to contain in its lyrics the title of the song which knocked it off number 1 was... Bohemian Rhapsody by Queen (lyric: "Mamma Mia")! The Forums Computer Nutter and expert! Discos, Lighting and Sound Reinforcement in and around Oxfordshire, Wiltshire, Gloustershire and Buckinghamshire etc... Special FX Entertainment Services Link to post Share on other sites
shifty 0 Posted January 17, 2005 Report Share Posted January 17, 2005 I use Peavey Hisis 4 and 118 xt bins. Easy job to recone wish some other manufacture's used the same idea as peavy. www.thepartypeople.org.uk Link to post Share on other sites
norty303 0 Posted February 14, 2005 Report Share Posted February 14, 2005 Re-cones done right are just as good as new drivers but they need to be done right. Some of my Precision Devices and Beyma drivers come in around £200 a throw so replacing them entirely is not an option. DIY plans and pro audio related technical discussions www.speakerplans.com/forum Link to post Share on other sites
superstardeejay 0 Posted March 14, 2005 Report Share Posted March 14, 2005 The general feeling in the service industry is that if the manufacturer does service kits (eg peavey, eminence etc) then the speaker must be worth repairing. I wouldnt bother sending the 'glued' cheaper variety away because results can be very variable. A recent set of Ohm MR228's which I had in after being re-coned by another dealer were awful: the suspension was way too slack and the poor cones had a massive excursion at full power. It would have been cheaper to change the lot for new in that case. Bear in mind that well-used speakers may have weak magnets and that's why the voice coils burned out anyway. . Link to post Share on other sites
Gary 0 Posted March 15, 2005 Report Share Posted March 15, 2005 (edited) QUOTE (MadGutts @ Jan 11 2005, 12:30 AM) I need some speakers reconed. Just out of interest... http://www.dj-forum.co.uk/html//emoticons/533.gif http://www.dj-forum.co.uk/html//emoticons/whistling.gif how did the speakers get blown? eg: during "experimentation"?, or during a hire out, where the hirer had been reading some gumph about a 200 watt speaker wont be happy until you feed it 400 watts? Edited March 15, 2005 by Gary Link to post Share on other sites
MadGutts 0 Posted March 15, 2005 Author Report Share Posted March 15, 2005 QUOTE Bear in mind that well-used speakers may have weak magnets and that's why the voice coils burned out anyway. Its not the magnet that makes the coil burn out! its the wrong amp! Anyway, thanks all, i have decided to go with buying new cones and a bigger power rating - so hopefully they wont blow so easily... PD drivers are what Turbosound use in there cabinets. There recone kits are fairly easy to install... But i have never had Eminence to be reconed before... Anyway all is ordered, and old baskets removed, shame really cos they have good magnets on them! http://www.dj-forum.co.uk/html//emoticons/wallbash.gif The only UK number 1 record to contain in its lyrics the title of the song which knocked it off number 1 was... Bohemian Rhapsody by Queen (lyric: "Mamma Mia")! The Forums Computer Nutter and expert! Discos, Lighting and Sound Reinforcement in and around Oxfordshire, Wiltshire, Gloustershire and Buckinghamshire etc... Special FX Entertainment Services Link to post Share on other sites
Dukesy 0 Posted March 15, 2005 Report Share Posted March 15, 2005 QUOTE Its not the magnet that makes the coil burn out! its the wrong amp! Is this due to driving the 'wrong amp' hard/hot or the speaker? http://www.dj-forum.co.uk/html//emoticons/533.gif Someone told me ages ago that feedback can also 'burn a coil out'. Is this true? http://www.dj-forum.co.uk/html//emoticons/smile.gif Link to post Share on other sites
Digital discos 0 Posted March 15, 2005 Report Share Posted March 15, 2005 Surely the most common cause of speaker damage is due to a clipping signal? Link to post Share on other sites
norty303 0 Posted March 15, 2005 Report Share Posted March 15, 2005 (edited) QUOTE where the hirer had been reading some gumph about a 200 watt speaker wont be happy until you feed it 400 watts? Where's the gumph in that statement then Gary? Also the most common causes of driver failure are mechanical (surround tearing, spider separating) or electrical (voice coil burning up) When an amp is clipped it causes plateaus in the signal at each excursion limit which makes the speaker try to stay extended at each extreme of travel. This causes the voice coil to be under strain, heat up and eventually melt. Mechanical failures are normally through over excursion (exceeding the Xmech limit given in the driver T/S parameters) This is genarally due to the driver being unloaded in the box it's playing in - e.g. an 18" driver may be in a bass reflex cab that is tuned to 40hz by the port and dimensions. If this box tries to play frequencies below 40hz the cone excursion will increase rapidly as the frequency drops. If you are driving the sub with a large amount of power then the driver will be getting close to it's Xmax WITHIN it's recommended operating area i.e. down to 40hz. If you go outside of this then the speaker will quickly be damaged. This is the reason why, if you are driving your subs with 1.5 to 2 times the recommended rms rating (which is fine within parameters) you MUST use a high-pass filter to ensure lower frequencies do not get to the speaker. This can all be calculated if the driver is known and the box size is known. --------------------------------- OH and to Madgutts - you really need to match your drivers to your cabs rather than just sticking any old driver. The reason why Turbosound are so good is the boxes plus having a very strong driver which is suited to that kind of cab (and they had them custom built to their spec by PD). A horn driver in a reflex box will perform worse than a lower rated driver that has characteristics suited to BR type cabs. If you want to let me know which PD drivers you have and the size of your cabs and ports i can tell you how to modify the ports to tune for the drivers. Edited March 16, 2005 by Gary DIY plans and pro audio related technical discussions www.speakerplans.com/forum Link to post Share on other sites
Gary 0 Posted March 16, 2005 Report Share Posted March 16, 2005 QUOTE (norty303 @ Mar 15 2005, 09:17 PM) QUOTE where the hirer had been reading some gumph about a 200 watt speaker wont be happy until you feed it 400 watts? Where's the gumph in that statement then Gary? It tends to be those who live by this idea who also know all about reconing and repairing speakers... Which isnt having a dig at anyone in particular here - its simply what I've seen and heard time and time again - Dave doubledecks happily nattering on a Thursday night about how its fine to ignore the rating on the back of the speakers, and then phoning around for re-coning on the Monday morning. Its been mentioned in several other posts over the last few years that if you want to put 200watts into a 200watt speaker, you dont use a 200watt amplifier pushed to its limit - theres far to much chance of the amp clipping and sending stuff to the speaker, which neither the speaker, nor the owner wants. Sending 200watts into a 200watt speaker by running a 400watt amp at half power (assuming all feeds to the amp are level) is fine normally - however, most amps attenuator controls are far from well-labeled, meaning its easy to send more than you anticipated into the speaker. I've seen someone do this eg: a 400watt RMS amp powering a 200watt RMS speaker, with the amp attenuators positioned at "about half way round - even though few are linear curve) and a simple fault on the mixer (a channel gain control stopped attenuating briefly) and all 4 speakers on the amp lost drivers. Accidents will happen. http://www.dj-forum.co.uk/html//emoticons/533.gif Link to post Share on other sites
John Kidd 0 Posted March 16, 2005 Report Share Posted March 16, 2005 (edited) Well i have learned something new tonight! Thanks all John Kidd http://www.dj-forum.co.uk/html//emoticons/thanks.gif Edited March 16, 2005 by John Kidd John Kidd Crystal Sounds Disco VICE S.E.D.A CHAIRMAN A Member of the Musicians Union A Member of the Federation of Small Businesses Link to post Share on other sites
norty303 0 Posted March 16, 2005 Report Share Posted March 16, 2005 The point of an rms rating is to give the continuous rating that a speaker can handle safely, this is usually measured with continuous sine or pink noise over a period of time. The reason why peak values are generally (on a good driver) double the rms value is because music is not a continuous signal but a series of peaks and troughs. I'm not suggesting running an amp that is double the rms rating on the speaker at half power/gain/input attenuator, i'm suggesting running at full power on the amps (amps should be run like this anyway for best dynamic range) and if necessary using all of the available power. This is perfectly safe providing you are running 'within the correct parameters for that speaker'. Boosting frequencies excessively to get more out of them than they were designed for is, IMO running them beyond their design constraints. I regularly run a 1200wrms rated sub with 2.4k amp at full power with no ill effects BUT I do have a very hard hi-pass filter at 40hz. Without this the drivers would no doubt self destruct fairly quickly through over excursion but you'd certainly hear them doing it a long time before they went. The problem with cheaper speakers is they don't give much information about them and they also aren't very well designed or tuned to begin with. People need to understand what the different ratings are on speakers and it's not helped by some of the brands who will quote a peak, continuous, rms, programme, etc and sometimes one or many of the previous. Running a larger amp into clip is only going to compound the problem though and should be avoided at all costs (as it should with any small amp too) DIY plans and pro audio related technical discussions www.speakerplans.com/forum Link to post Share on other sites
Gary 0 Posted March 16, 2005 Report Share Posted March 16, 2005 QUOTE (norty303 @ Mar 16 2005, 12:39 AM) i'm suggesting running at full power on the amps (amps should be run like this anyway for best dynamic range) and if necessary using all of the available power. With regular gigs to consider, I could never condone this practice. Far too easy to loose a speaker, and drop yourself in it for a gig which might be just a day away. I go with the play it safe option and have never blown a speaker, and never had any complaints about the sound. However, each to their own. http://www.dj-forum.co.uk/html//emoticons/notworthy.gif Its just not something I'd suggest anyone try 1 night, with a forthcoming gig soon after... Link to post Share on other sites
norty303 0 Posted March 16, 2005 Report Share Posted March 16, 2005 QUOTE With regular gigs to consider, I could never condone this practice. Far too easy to loose a speaker, and drop yourself in it for a gig which might be just a day away This is regular practise amongst most PA audio suppliers and manufacturers and is not some half baked notion of experimental audio that you seem to be painting it with though Gary. Where a speaker manufacturer recommends an amp size they will usually be in a range between the rms value and the peak value for that speaker. I've yet to hear of a disastrous cone blowing experience when using an amp twice the size of the rms value but you have to be suspect of cabs which give an rms value of 300w and a peak of 400w. DIY plans and pro audio related technical discussions www.speakerplans.com/forum Link to post Share on other sites
Gary 0 Posted March 16, 2005 Report Share Posted March 16, 2005 Youch! http://www.dj-forum.co.uk/html//emoticons/scared.gif Like I said Norty303, each to their own. I've never risked the "This'll blow blow'em but, this other little box should save 'em" philosophy. Either consequently, or coincidently, I'm still running the same cabs and drivers which have served me for over 15 years. Im not saying that how one person drives their speakers is wrong, and how another drives their speakers is right. Link to post Share on other sites
superstardeejay 0 Posted March 17, 2005 Report Share Posted March 17, 2005 Most truly professional nightclub / PA installers will install amps at least 70% larger than the speakers. The output from the amps is curtailed by fitting a tamper-protected compressor-limiter to stop any sustained overdriving. This is the only foolproof way to stop overdriving since any generously specced amp turned down on its gain knobs can still be peaked by driving the mixer right into the red. The limiter stops all this right at the input of the amp rack. . Link to post Share on other sites
MadGutts 0 Posted March 17, 2005 Author Report Share Posted March 17, 2005 QUOTE OH and to Madgutts - you really need to match your drivers to your cabs rather than just sticking any old driver. The reason why Turbosound are so good is the boxes plus having a very strong driver which is suited to that kind of cab (and they had them custom built to their spec by PD). A horn driver in a reflex box will perform worse than a lower rated driver that has characteristics suited to BR type cabs. If you want to let me know which PD drivers you have and the size of your cabs and ports i can tell you how to modify the ports to tune for the drivers. Already way ahead of you. I have been using PD and Eminence for years... so the like for like and the mathmatical sequences i use have already worked out what i need to know for useing the "wrong cone" in the cabinet. I have already worked it all out and the performance is better than before plus the power rating of the new speakers, hopefully, means he wont blow them !!!! LOL http://www.dj-forum.co.uk/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif Thanks for the offer tho m8. And for those of you on the old argument of "amps right up and mixer down, or Mixer right up and amps half down, or beer on the table and trousers down - http://www.dj-forum.co.uk/html//emoticons/oops.gif OOPS go carried away there http://www.dj-forum.co.uk/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif " but anyway this is covered in another post in techie talk and doesn't need to fill this one up !!!! The only UK number 1 record to contain in its lyrics the title of the song which knocked it off number 1 was... Bohemian Rhapsody by Queen (lyric: "Mamma Mia")! The Forums Computer Nutter and expert! Discos, Lighting and Sound Reinforcement in and around Oxfordshire, Wiltshire, Gloustershire and Buckinghamshire etc... Special FX Entertainment Services Link to post Share on other sites
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