Sound Limiters

[DJ Ben 0]

It might sound like a really stupid question, But what are sound limiters???

I have an idea, But I'd like clarification, and how will I know if there is one at a venue?

 

thanks

 

Ben

[Gary 0]

Firstly...no such thing as a stupid question. http://www.dj-forum.co.uk/html//emoticons/thumbup.gif http://www.dj-forum.co.uk/html//emoticons/cool.gif

 

 

 

http://www.dj-forum.co.uk/html//emoticons/221.gif Evil....they be evil....sound limiters? Evil I tell ee

 

On the downside... Soundlimiters consist of 4 bits.

 

 

1) The microphone - usually mounted up high.

 

2) The control box - usually hidden in a locked cupboard or some inaccessible part of the venue - bolted to a wall.

 

3) The Traffic lights - These too are usually mounted on a wall, but somewhere where the DJ (or band etc) can see them. Theres usually a Green light which means "System on", an amber light meaning "I can hear music, but its at an ok volume", and a red light... heres where the "fun" starts...

 

If the red light stays on for X seconds (a period set by the control box) the power sockets on the stage, or around the "DJ end" of the room switch off completely for Y seconds (also adjustable from the control box)

 

The control box also allows the maximum allowable volume to set by the installer (normally done quite accurately), or by the venue caretaker, usually then set at way too low a volume.

 

Never, ever, ever, ever (you get the idea) try to bypass the noise limiter - eg: sticking a condom over the microphone, or running a 400 meter extension lead into the cooker socket in the venues kitchen etc. Unprofessional and usually has knock-on effects ranging from the hirer of the venue (usually the person that hired you too) losing their venue deposit, right up to the venue having its noise limiter turned down even further the week after, as last week was "still too loud".

 

Noise limiters cost money. No venue is going to shell out £400+ for supply and install of a noise limiter unless they have to. The most common reason that a venue would have to get a noise limiter is that local residents have moaned about the noise from previous functions - such venues can either then choose to work with a noise limiter from then on, or risk loosing a lot of revenue by not holding discos, meaning less work for DJ's.

 

Its really easy to work WITH a noise limiter, and there are several threads you can search for here on DJU. I always recommend that you introduce the audience to the noise limiter eg: Point to the traffic light display and tell them right at the beginning of the night that the hall is fitted with a noise limiter, and it turns your power off if you play at a level that IT thinks is too loud, and you'll play the music as close to normal disco levels as you can...but tell them that they can expect the power to cut off a few times...its not uncommon.

 

A compressor/limiter device between your mixer and your amps can help to automatically adjust your output to a level that the noise limiter thinks is ok (after a couple of learning curves/trips), BUT remember that the microphone on the limiter assesses the total sound in the room .... your music level, the sound of guests chatting, chairs scrapping, cutlery clicking on plates, a dropped glass... and the most atmosphere killing moment of all - people singing along with their favourite party tracks .... eg: "...And its HIGH HO SILVER LI............................" http://www.dj-forum.co.uk/html//emoticons/huh.gif http://www.dj-forum.co.uk/html//emoticons/huh.gif http://www.dj-forum.co.uk/html//emoticons/huh.gif http://www.dj-forum.co.uk/html//emoticons/huh.gif http://www.dj-forum.co.uk/html//emoticons/huh.gif

Edited February 2, 2006 by Gary

[jamminroadshow 0]

They are like a hidden microphone that picks up sound and when it gets to a certain level cuts the power.

 

I refused to work unless they turned it off as the sudden loss of power could blow up some of the equipment that i use.

 

Some places have a warning light system that show green amber and red. Depends really on how good there system is i have always found them a pain in the ass. If you are at a place with them i would ask them to turn it off before you start as they are normally set to low and make it so that people can not hear the music and speechs are too low as someone with a bassy voice can trip it.

[High Fidelity 0]

Besides the traffic light ones, there are also some that just have a light (usually amber) on the ceiling. When it starts to flicker you're getting close, if it stays fully lit for so long, off go the sockets.

 

The main problem I've had with this type is being able to see if the bulbs lit when all the disco lights are running.

 

Having said all that, I've never actually had one trip on me yet. But like Gary said, if I know about it I introduce the audience to it.

[Thats entertainment 0]

Sound Limiters, What are they?

 

A pain in the http://www.dj-forum.co.uk/html//emoticons/censored2.gif

 

 

[DJ Ben 0]

Oh OK. Sound like great fun to work with http://www.dj-forum.co.uk/html//emoticons/fear.gif

Methinks the staff are hardly likely to turn off the limiters because otherwise it would be a lil bit pointless having one http://www.dj-forum.co.uk/html//emoticons/wacko.gif

 

anyway

 

thanks guys

i feel a new topic coming on:

 

"What really http://www.dj-forum.co.uk/html//emoticons/censored2.gif off DJ's"

 

Ben

[jamminroadshow 0]

Some will turn it off depends on the landlord if you agree to turn it down if they request it. I tell them that my insurance will not cover if the reason for my equipment blowing up is a sound limiter. I say that i can not take thay risk

 

 

[RobbieD 0]

Some venues also have the system connected to the fire exits. If someone opens the fire exits, the power goes off! http://www.dj-forum.co.uk/html//emoticons/fear.gif

 

Great on a hot summers evening.

 

And the kids may think that this is a great game to play.

[Mo The Motown Man 0]

http://www.dj-forum.co.uk/html//emoticons/014.gif Sound Limiter are nearly as traffic wardens http://www.dj-forum.co.uk/html//emoticons/scared.gif http://www.dj-forum.co.uk/html//emoticons/omg.gif http://www.dj-forum.co.uk/html//emoticons/hide.gif

[DJ Ben 0]

QUOTE (blackvynil @ Feb 2 2006, 06:31 PM)

http://www.dj-forum.co.uk/html//emoticons/014.gif Sound Limiter are nearly as traffic wardens http://www.dj-forum.co.uk/html//emoticons/scared.gif http://www.dj-forum.co.uk/html//emoticons/omg.gif http://www.dj-forum.co.uk/html//emoticons/hide.gif

Traffic Wardens??

 

I'm quitting DJ'ing http://www.dj-forum.co.uk/html//emoticons/scared.gif

 

So what would I do if the limiter 'broke' all my equipment. Would i claim it off the management/landlord/owner/muggins who owns the place?

 

Ben

[nrgize 0]

Only one good thing for them....

I dont have to take out so much gear! Just the 1 pair of speakers on low volume wokrs a treat ! LOL

But also they are a pain in the .... COUGH!

 

The Venue I am playing at tomorrow night has a sound limiter, I usually plug the sound system into the kitchen next to the stage, and plug the lighting into the limiter socket. So if the sound does get loud all of a sudden only the lighting is lost for a short time. Bearing in mind at this venue they only supply 1 Double socket is supplied which I dont like plugging all my gear into. I always request at least 2 Double Sockets.

[Hoseman-ade 0]

played a village hall who had one fitted because of the neighbours, small light of the same design as the rest of the ceiling lights!!!!!! didnt get told about it, didnt see it until.......oops wheres the power gone http://www.dj-forum.co.uk/html//emoticons/188.gif

 

but as was pointed out further up this thread, the noise from the floor singing "sweet caroline" damm well triggered it as well later on http://www.dj-forum.co.uk/html//emoticons/014.gif they are a problem of that there is no doubt, we spent the rest of the night watching the light flickering red and working the masters to try to keep playing and keeping the crowd happy !

 

 

 

 

[NJD 0]

Don't shoot the messenger!

I designed a sound limiter (the Eagle one), so I'm wise to most of the techniques to circumvent them, like turning on all the lighting and tripping it a good few times whilst setting up, so that the switch-on surge welds the relay contacts, but the real problem is council officials.

(Some installers have made a few silly mistakes, like installing the microphone so that the cheering from customers watching football on TV trips it)

Having spoken to many installers, it appears that the number of council officials that have any idea how to set up a sound limiter are in a tiny minority. Most of them haven't a clue. They have been issued with a sound-level meter, but it appears that they haven't been give the instructions for using it. Some of them have even been putting it right in front of the speakers so that it touches the speaker grille. Of course it's loud just there!

What they should be doing (but I admit that it doesn't help you lot very much) is measuring the sound level in the complainant's house whilst music is played in the hall/club, and setting the trip-level accordingly, whilst taking into account such factors as traffic noise etc.

At a guess, you'll find that certain local authorities are worse than others for having badly set-up sound limiters.

Other problems are old and badly financed village halls - they have little sound insulation so the neighbours start to complain sooner.

[ChrisPointon 0]

QUOTE

I designed a sound limiter (the Eagle one)

 

I hope that they paid you well, and that you enjoyed your 30 pieces of silver! http://www.dj-forum.co.uk/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif

 

 

I did a teenage disco in a venue fitted with a sound limiter only the other week - as you know most teenagers are not appreciative of levels of music which are little more than around 50 watts. To be honest i've played background music at Weddings at higher levels than this device allowed me too.

 

Fuming? - doesn't come close. The gig was all but ruined. I was annoyed, the kids' parents were annoyed, and the party was ruined. At times I even had to stop the kids singing along to the chorus of songs because they tripped the limiter!!!!. All because of a faceless piece of junk in the corner.

 

Whilst most council officials are probably tucked up in bed watching Coronation Street with their horlicks by 7.45PM doesn't give them the right to prevent other people have having a (night) life. This venue wasn't on a housing estate and was roughly around 500 yards from the nearest house. Like most of these devices, it was probably only installed on a whim of some 85 year old dinosaur because "it is the councils policy to install these devices in all council run venues regardless of their location" http://www.dj-forum.co.uk/html//emoticons/rolleyes.gif .

 

I suggest that DJ's and Bands alike, boycott these venues on principle. One for all and all for one! http://www.dj-forum.co.uk/html//emoticons/patriot.gif

 

Add the details of any Venues from hell Here

[Digital discos 0]

Just buy a generator or ups for such occasions..

 

I mean I would not ruin my professional image, and ruin a clients night due to a stupidly set limiter. If its set at a reasonable level and is near other housing fair enough, but I refuse to tolerate poorly set limiters in venues in the middle of no where

 

Using a UPS or Generator, is technically not illegal like bypassing a sound limiter, if questioned I would simply state its dangerous for the equipment to be shut down iractically eg hard discs failures etc.

[ChrisPointon 0]

QUOTE

Just buy a generator

 

So you would carry a Generator around with you at every gig?

 

A UPS is flawed. For a start one which will will power a complete disco continuously for 3 - 5 hours will need to be have batteries possibly similar to those on a milk float. A UPS is great for short power outages on computer equipment, but not really practical for running an entire disco from all night as an alternative to mains power.

[brianmole 0]

Whilst browsing a reputable mixer manufacturers website, I was reminded of the bit of kit I would gladly try to stick up their ........

 

Brace youself, scroll down...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

http://www.formula-sound.com/downloads/dl/fs-img-1107177969-s.jpg

[nrgize 0]

QUOTE

Whilst browsing a reputable mixer manufacturers website, I was reminded of the bit of kit I would gladly try to stick up their ........ Brace youself, scroll down...

 

Thats the exact unit I was faced upon Friday!!

There is only 1 double socket in the room to plug into, and a double in the kitchen (which they dont like you using) So when unit tripped only lighting went off.

When the staff were putting ashtrays out at beginning of the night it was lit up onto -3Db. Which i was amazed at!

It didnt ruin this evening though, but can feel exactly how Chris feels!

This venue I played at never used to have any houses near. But a couple of years ago 2 blocks of flats were built behind the Football Club causing loads of complaints. The Towns Football Club has been there for years! They were here first!!!

 

[icarusdragon 0]

digital disco

 

like the idea of using UPS what would you suggested rating wise for a dual cd deck at least 1000 watt amp and extras. Plus approx 4 lights just to keep the sjhow running for at least 10 mins while you get things underconntrol sound wise http://www.dj-forum.co.uk/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif

[highslayer 0]

Icarus - IF you could even find such a decvice I doubt it would be possible to carry it.

 

As an example, a decent 1000VA UPS will set you back around £150 and weigh around the same as a powerful amp. This will just about cope with a modern PC, and at a pinch an amp. If you want to run lights too then look at 2000VA minimum. try finding one!

 

A (illegal) workaround for the limiter is to connect all your lighting via the limited sockets (bar 1 for safety) and then connect your sound gear somewhere else (kitchen etc). If you see the lights go out, turn down the sound. That way you are still conforming with the acceptable noise levels, but without running the risk of damage to your equipment. As said earlier - many limiters are set at stupid levels. They are set in total quiet, in an empty room, where anything sounds loud! To be set correctly, noise should be monitored during a gig, from outside the building, and the limiter set so that the noise OUTSIDE is acceptable, regardless of the volume levels inside, which are irrelevant to the reasons for having the limiter in the first place!

 

So - 100 yards up the road in a residential area, xdB is the maximum acceptable level at 11pm. The sound in the venue at that point is ydB, and the limiter should be set at ydB -1. The likelihood then is that the volume inside will be loud enough for a decent party, whilst still remaining acceptable to local residents. However, in a tin shed with the windows and doors open, and houses just across the road, levels x and y could be pretty similar, which will cause problems. The only real solution is for the venue to take other precautions, such as sound insulation, door policies etc.