Time to rally the troops ?

[Gary 0]

QUOTE (discodirect @ Oct 17 2005, 01:45 PM)

QUOTE Why does "Public Performance Ltd" want to charge me more for playing the same sounds at the audience from my laptop/harddrive device?   Don't forget the MP3 CD Players!!! ah, well, you see thats a whole separate question, similar to one which Im waiting for an answer from PPL for. eg: Can a "Database" be a big folder/stack of CDs (eg: MP3 or audio CDR's) NOT simply a harddrive.   If PPL state that they only consider a database to be a hardrive, I'm intending to take it further wth them.

[Dukesy 0]

So a database isn't digital and an audio database (CDR) is ?

 

This is very confusing MR J? http://www.dj-forum.co.uk/html//emoticons/laugh.gif

 

Why are you not classing digital media as digital media with PPL ? http://www.dj-forum.co.uk/html//emoticons/533.gif

Please explain? http://www.dj-forum.co.uk/html//emoticons/smile.gif

 

 

 

 

 

[Gary 0]

QUOTE (discodirect @ Oct 17 2005, 03:41 PM)

So a database isn't digital and an audio database (CDR) is ? This is very confusing MR J? http://www.dj-forum.co.uk/html//emoticons/laugh.gif Why are you not classing digital media as digital media with PPL ? http://www.dj-forum.co.uk/html//emoticons/533.gif Please explain? http://www.dj-forum.co.uk/html//emoticons/smile.gif

Now you've confused me http://www.dj-forum.co.uk/html//emoticons/wacko.gif (not difficult) http://www.dj-forum.co.uk/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif

 

The terms and conditions of the Digital DJ license advise that a holder of the licence may keep upto 20,000 tunes on a "Database" and that they may keep a "Backup database" too. In the same T&C's PPL mention "database" and state "EG: A harddrive". I'm happy to accept that a harddrive can indeed hold a collection of files, but then, so too can a stack of CDRs'. Copying/dubbing a whole load of AUDIO from say, vinyl to that database, would indeed be something that MCPS rather than PPL would get involved with - however, if the resultant tracks were stored on the CDRs as MP3 (Thats DATA rather than AUDIO) then I dont see that MCPS would be involved - hence I'm awaiting clarification from PPL that their licence would allow DJs including myself to hold our database and backup database on CDR's rather than a harddrive.

[Dukesy 0]

Thanks for explaining that Gary - I understand now.

[shortvehicle 0]

Hey guys, http://www.dj-forum.co.uk/html//emoticons/ranting.gif

 

Cool down a bit. For a law to be passed in this country, it needs proposal by the house of commons, and ratification by the house of lords.

Do you see anything on the statute books, or in proposal to do that?

No, nor do I.

 

Why are we even giving page spread to these rogues who would say 'stand and deliver', and have you all bowing and scraping to pay their protection racket money?

 

This needs discussion (if at all) by higher powers, and if you think about it hard.... Licence is granted to IPOD owners for personal use.... OH YEAH? so what if you plug in the speakers and play it to your mates?

Are you telling me that is illegal? If any DJ gets plugged for anything, any good legal guy would be able to answer with that one.

 

Get a life!

tell them to swivel, and we all stand together.

 

 

 

 

[Paul Forsyth 0]

QUOTE (shortvehicle @ Oct 17 2005, 07:37 PM)

This needs discussion (if at all) by higher powers,

The "higher" powers have little or no interest in this. They will do nothing if not lobby'd.

 

 

 

Have you seen the license?

 

Have you seen how they intend to implement the policing of it?

 

Do you understand "precedent" in the legal system?

 

What are your views on this issue, or do you believe we should wait for it to be implemented and then complain when the first guy gets done in a couple of years time and the obvious question is - "If this license is unjust , why was there no objection to it and why did people buy it?"

 

Vinnie

[Dukesy 0]

Good points Vinnie.

 

Does the National Association have a stance on this product licence?

Not heard anything. http://www.dj-forum.co.uk/html//emoticons/533.gif

 

However, I believe that NADJ are watching the threads closely and will be looking into the subject, how the product licence will affect members / DJs in general, etc.

 

A very important point will be the legal position of the DJ.

 

Nobody wants to break the law.

 

Association will not encourage DJ members to break the law.

 

But it would be nice to see what stance is being taken to get the introduced licence reviewed so that it works FOR ALL DJs wishing to be legal in the use of the current and maybe even future formats available.

 

The 'product' needs to be fit for the use!

 

It's worth bearing in mind that the software used on the computer systems also have to comply with the licence requirements and use.

 

Nobody want's to purchase the licence......... which implies illegal operations if 'X' software is used because it can be construed as illegal in the UK?!

 

So what are the software companies thinking about the licence?

 

There is very little time to engage all concerns.

We can sit back and watch what develops.....and not whing or moan in the future, wether you rely on DJing as a main source of income or not - it will be too late.

 

Or, we can focus on the product licece (which is actually a good idea in principal for DJs) but needs to address the needs of the user.

 

Nobody wants to fill out loads of paperwork for a bloody mp3 track downloaded and burnt to CDR in order to be 'legal' to play in a venue.

Nobody expects their details passed on unknowingly to organisations from the venue managers *who are also going to be sick and tired of paperwork........who are just as likely to suggest at their meetings for less booked DJs.....more automated and live entertainment???*

 

Currently, it's a big, big 'mess' that needs a lot of sorting out! http://www.dj-forum.co.uk/html//emoticons/tongue.gif

Edited October 18, 2005 by discodirect

[ChrisPointon 0]

No one would have believed, in the first years of the twenty first century, that DJ's affairs were being watched from the timeless rooms of PPL head office. No one could have dreamed that the Entertainment Industry was being scrutinized like someone with a microscope studies creatures that swarm and multiply in a drop of water. Few men even considered the possibility of a Digital DJ Licence. And yet, across the boardrooms of the UK, minds immeasurably inferior to ours regarded our industry with envious eyes, and slowly and surely, they drew their plans against us.....

[brianmole 0]

http://www.dj-forum.co.uk/html//emoticons/071.gif Very good Chris!

[Gary 0]

QUOTE (Chris_Pointon @ Oct 21 2005, 12:29 PM)

No one would have believed, in the first years of the twenty first century, that DJ's affairs were being watched from the timeless rooms of PPL head office. No one could have dreamed that the Entertainment Industry was being scrutinized like someone with a microscope studies creatures that swarm and multiply in a drop of water. Few men even considered the possibility of a Digital DJ Licence. And yet, across the boardrooms of the UK, minds immeasurably inferior to ours regarded our industry with envious eyes, and slowly and surely, they drew their plans against us.....

Brian? can you have that voiceover ready for the Nov 20th SEDA meeting...it can be Richards theme tune... http://www.dj-forum.co.uk/html//emoticons/whistling.gif

[FDDJ 0]

I can't help but think this is one of the mis-selling scandals of the year because (as far as I can see) the Digital DJ Licence only applies to public performance.

 

By PPL's own definition (see the Mobile DJ PPL Licence), Weddings & Birthdays etc. are classified as "Private" functions and not public, therefore you do not require a Digital DJ Licence.

 

SG6 is another matter of course.

[Dukesy 0]

I've got a plan..............................

 

We're gonna build a whole new world for ourselves........................

 

You should see it..........................

[Gary 0]

QUOTE (StevJam @ Oct 21 2005, 01:45 PM)

the Digital DJ Licence only applies to public performance. By PPL's own definition (see the Mobile DJ PPL Licence), Weddings & Birthdays etc. are classified as "Private" functions and not public, therefore you do not require a Digital DJ Licence.

 

I cant speak for 100% of the UK Mobile DJ's of course, but, whilst I do perform alot of family events - there is a percentage of my bookings which are not family, and therefore are classed as public - eg: A companies dinner dance, a sports clubs trophy presentation night, the local Woolworths staff Christmas Party, multi-party attendee christmas dinner disco nights at hotels etc.

 

I do know however, that whilst there are some DJ's who specialise in nothing but family/private (eg: No PPL interest), in December, I'm sure that even those "Private" DJ's cant help but end up doing a few public do's - and as soon as you do just one public gig with a harddrive, PPL would say (as per their website) that the license would be required.

 

 

Heres an idea... the flaw with the PPL licence, as I see it, is double payments of artist royalties. eg: A PPL registered venue pays for a venue licence which funds payments to artists - a DJ with a hardrive and the new license, also funds payments to artists - this second payment is something which a DJ using vinyl, original CD's etc, wouldnt be funding. This is clearly unfair...

 

Would an artist expect different amounts of royalties if their CD is played, rather than the vinyl release. (Better not go there...they might)

 

Now then... heres the idea bit... why dont PPL make the harddrive licence applicable at VENUE level, rather than DJ level? It is VENUEs who are being marketed, (and marketed HARD) by companies cobbling together stand-alone digital jukeboxes, computer-run music systems, themed artifical intelligence systems .... all being hard-sold to the venues with the "hot button" of "with our system playing, your punters will stay longer, and spend more"...so, if its so beneficial for VENUEs to have hardrive systems in, let them pay for that.

 

A sort of Digital Venue License - rather than the horribly mis-named Digital DJ licence. ("Please double-click to start show"..."Are you sure? Y/N")

 

We as DJ's can then opt to take out our harddrives if booked to play a venue which has acquired the Digital Venue License, or to run from our normal pro-gear if playing a venue which has just ordinary PPL cover.

 

It would, at first glance appear to be alot less admin for PPL, after all - it'll just be one extra tick box on their existing venue application form..."Will your music be playing from a harddrive at any time? Y/N..." If "YES" then the venue simply gets pointed toward the "PPL (Digital)" license at £1500 Per Annum, instead of the bog standard PPL (non-digital) license at £1300 per annum) (all figures are guess-timates)

 

I've not thought this whole "Digital Venue, rather than "Digital DJ" idea out thoroughly yet...and I know it might sound like "passing the buck" (onto the venue), but do people feel that this might be a way forward.

 

Points of view? http://www.dj-forum.co.uk/html//emoticons/533.gif

Edited October 21, 2005 by Gary

[Dukesy 0]

The biggest flaw with the PPL license is that it is only half the story........the other half is MCPS, no?

 

[Hugmaster 0]

Hi

 

In five year's time I wouldn't mind betting there will be a post on here that goes something like...

 

"Hi all

 

I've been using a DDL for the last five years and was given to assume that venues would be vigorously checking my equipment for any computerised/digital systems. However I've never been asked to produce my licence, nor incidentally have I been asked to produce my PAT and PLI documents.

 

Anyone been asked to produce such documents?"

 

Betchya!

 

Darren

[Gary 0]

QUOTE (Hugmaster @ Oct 22 2005, 06:27 AM)

Hi In five year's time I wouldn't mind betting there will be a post on here that goes something like... "Hi all I've been using a DDL for the last five years and was given to assume that venues would be vigorously checking my equipment for any computerised/digital systems. However I've never been asked to produce my licence, nor incidentally have I been asked to produce my PAT and PLI documents. Anyone been asked to produce such documents?" Betchya! Darren

Ah good, does that mean you're going to start saving loads of money by not renewing your PLI and PAT? http://www.dj-forum.co.uk/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif

 

On the subject of "I've never seen an inspector", well there will always be the "thin on the ground" aspect eg: 30+ inspectors Vs thousands upon thousands of venues, its obviously not going to happen overnight. But, being charged 50% over the top for the license if/when discovered operating a harddrive is risky.

 

I would imagine that PPL might also find favour with the "lightning strikes twice" principle, whereby if they find a venue whos allowed an un-licensed harddrive user to perform in their venue once without checking for a license, the PPL might favour that same venue regularly, with the venues own music license at risk, getting more and more venues into a self-policing frame-of-mind.

 

 

[Hugmaster 0]

Hi

 

Gary, of course I'll renew PAT and PLI, that is a question of safety and covering your back if the speeker falls on grandma.

 

The DDL to my knowledge has never been passed through parliament as a law and my hard drive won't kill anyone if it malfunctions.

 

The only people to gain here are the PPL and the people who will lose out in terms of quality are the customers.

 

Go figure.

 

And it still brings us back to the question of venues self policing, I've still not been asked to produce PAT and PLI documents, and in my view that's a damn site more important than what music format you choose to use to play music.

 

Sorry folks, I'll say it again, it's a bloody big con!

 

By all means make it a requirement to have to licence yourself as a DJ and pay a subscription, but the leave choice of format to the DJ and don't penalise us for not using CD only.

 

 

[Paul Forsyth 0]

I don't know if anyone can throw any light on the future of mp3's stored on disc as this appears to not be covered by the digital dj license.

 

Gary - is there any chance you could get a view from Dennon as to what percentage of their global market is affected bu this kind of restriction, and what price they could do a uk DN-6000 without the mp3 features http://www.dj-forum.co.uk/html//emoticons/rolleyes.gif

 

Vinnie

[Andy Westcott 0]

This DDL must never become law, we mustn't allow it.

We've bought the music once, and musn't be charged for storing that paid-for music in a different format.

 

As mentioned some time back in this thread, technology has moved forward and by storing music on a hard drive is simply taking advantage of the medium available.

 

Personally, I'm looking at the possibility of reducing the CD/vinyl load by recording much of my little-used music to a hard drive, for occasional use, the idea being if the computer malfunctioned, I could still present the show because the main music would be in 'normal' format. Much of my music is very rarely played (How often have you played Hokey Kokey by Judge Dread??), but for the sake of a small computer box I could take everything with me, yet reduce my music box count by maybe 80%.

 

I don't see the PPL guys can have any legal right to intervene and reap further revenue from this most practical of ideas.

[Gary 0]

QUOTE (Vinnie @ Oct 22 2005, 01:13 PM)

I don't know if anyone can throw any light on the future of mp3's stored on disc as this appears to not be covered by the digital dj license. Gary - is there any chance you could get a view from Dennon as to what percentage of their global market is affected bu this kind of restriction, and what price they could do a uk DN-6000 without the mp3 features http://www.dj-forum.co.uk/html//emoticons/rolleyes.gif Vinnie

Funnily enough, its only the UK (to my knowledge) which suffers this restriction. Despite the huge slice of the pro CD deck pie which Denon enjoy in the UK,

the UK restrictions affect only a tiny percentage of things worldwide.

 

The Denon CD-decks all have enough features which work on ordinary "shop-bought" audio CDs(as well as mp3 cdrs) to make the units very appealing.

 

MP3 on a CD is of course, legally achieveable even in the UK, eg: Legal, legit, 79p downloads from all those highstreet names, so long as the smallprint on the website confirms (fingers crossed that PPL doesnt say otherwise),and of course unsigned artists could always record their original songs to mp3 cdr.

[Paul Forsyth 0]

Hi Gary

 

[(fingers crossed that PPL doesnt say otherwise),]

 

Unfortunately ppl says http://www.dj-forum.co.uk/html//emoticons/nono.gif anything put on to cd cdr is pirating (unsigned / non ppl material excepted)

 

[/quote The Denon CD-decks all have enough features which work on ordinary "shop-bought" audio CDs(as well as mp3 cdrs) to make the units very appealing.]

 

True - but what a waste of all that R&D & how sad that we can't take advantage of these advances for the betterment of our service to our customers http://www.dj-forum.co.uk/html//emoticons/sad.gif

 

[quote Funnily enough, its only the UK (to my knowledge) which suffers this restriction. Despite the huge slice of the pro CD deck pie which Denon enjoy in the UK,

the UK restrictions affect only a tiny percentage of things worldwide.]

 

Is there any chance of getting actual figures / accurate data as this could be extremely useful http://www.dj-forum.co.uk/html//emoticons/cool.gif

 

Cheers

 

http://www.dj-forum.co.uk/html//emoticons/beer.gif

 

Vinnie

 

PS - must find out how to use the quote facility properly http://www.dj-forum.co.uk/html//emoticons/sterb188.gif

[Gary 0]

I dont think that theres any significant wasted research & development on the Denon CD-decks in respect of "some" DJs in -one- overly restricted country not being able to use MP3 (unless they really want to)) http://www.dj-forum.co.uk/html//emoticons/whistling.gif

 

Its akin to buying a car thats capable of doing 140mph but cant legally be driven over 70mph in this country.

 

There isnt a percentage which I can advise. After all, its only the last 3 or 4 months that its been pubically and widely clarified how the uk copyrights affect our situation, equipment preferences, dislike of CD/Vinyl cases.

 

I'd be more keen on the SG-6 license fee being doubled to £1000 for 5000 tracks, but with the "write to the record companies" task being removed.

 

Anyone got any views on my above comments, few posts ago, about the hardrive license being changed to being at venue level, rather than DJ/person level? We need to offer PPL as many alternatives as possible, since "We dont like the new license " (x 200 voices) isnt going to get any viable message across to PPL.

 

[Paul Forsyth 0]

 

More like buing a four wheel drive but only being allowed to drive two wheel drive.

 

[/quote - Anyone got any views on my above comments, few posts ago, about the hardrive license being changed to being at venue level, rather than DJ/person level?]

 

Yes whilst it takes the problem away from you and I personally (as non-digital dj's) I can see this being horrendous for pc based dj's as venue managers stop using them because they cost the venue money http://www.dj-forum.co.uk/html//emoticons/wallbash.gif

 

 

I agree that possibly the sg6 route might be favourite - but this license is a nightmare - I have never seen anything like this it really is not doing what we (the consumer either want or need (regardless of the price)

 

[/quote - We need to offer PPL as many alternatives as possible, since "We dont like the new license " (x 200 voices) isnt going to get any viable message across to PPL.]

 

No we don't really - they need to get their product right, and we need to show them and their retailers how strongly we feel about this - we need to examine every aspect of legal challenge to this license and we have got to be thinking of OUR INTEREST and stop playing nice with these people because they for sure ain't gonna be playing nice with us - we have to bring pressure to bear wherever we can and the retailers of this product ma find themselves in an uneviable possition.

 

Although ppl may (?) be able to legally force this license upon us it is immorral as it stands.

 

Vinnie

 

 

[Paul Forsyth 0]

I think we really need to see what is happening - this does not bode well for us DJ's

 

We need to unite to protect all dj's - pc / cd / vinyl / mobile / club / radio / pro / semi-pro / bedroom and superstar (+ any others I've forgotton)

 

 

First They Came for the Jews

 

First they came for the Jews

and I did not speak out

because I was not a Jew.

Then they came for the Communists

and I did not speak out

because I was not a Communist.

Then they came for the trade unionists

and I did not speak out

because I was not a trade unionist.

Then they came for me

and there was no one left

to speak out for me.

 

 

Pastor Martin Niemöller

 

Love & Peace (except to PPL)

 

Vinnie

[Gary 0]

I've been looking into the legal side of things and digging up some history on PPL.

 

We can almost be totally sure that The Musicians Union wont have anything more than lipservice and teflon sympathy for us.

 

Why?

 

Type in "12.5% to MU" into Google, (including the inverted comma's/speech marks) and see who gives the MU wads of voluntairy royalties. Three guesses anyone...

 

Also we can all but forget the defence that "We" the DJ are helping the industry and benefiting the artists themselves by playing their music...this was the stance taken by Andy's Records in Aberystwyth pre-Feb 2004.

 

I have also started making enquiries at a UK legal firm who appears to have faced PPL in court and at tribunals on several occasions.

Edited October 24, 2005 by Gary